Comments on: Sacrament does not renew the baptismal covenant https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2013/01/08/sacrament-does-not-renew-the-baptismal-covenant/ Thought-provoking commentary on life, politics, religion and social issues. Wed, 08 Feb 2023 22:03:02 +0000 hourly 1 By: Lamont https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2013/01/08/sacrament-does-not-renew-the-baptismal-covenant/comment-page-1/#comment-229714 Wed, 05 Oct 2016 00:14:42 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/?p=2761#comment-229714 In reply to Kim Siever.

Kim:
I have often wondered how the membership of the Church decided the sacrament “renewed their baptismal covenant”. I googled the question today and here I am on your blog.
In general, I think you are right and the connection requires some verbal gymnastics.
The baptismal ordinance is simple and sweet, without any mention of a covenant. It’s a pure “action” ordinance.
The sacrament prayers are also simple and sweet (thanks Moroni!). In the prayers we are asked to remember the Savior by taking His name upon us and keeping his commandments.
Anything one might say to connect the two ordinances requires that we “refer to this” or “read that”.
The forgiveness implied in baptism and the atonement implied in the sacrament are both wonderful blessings. In that sense, they are connected. But I agree with your point that LDS membership has created a connection that is not stated in the ordinances. And so we see how doctrine can become skewed just a little, even though the intentions are good. This is a concept to “place on a shelf” so we don’t stub our toe on it.
I like your blog and your sincere intent. I’m puzzled by a few replies that want to chastise you for stating a clear question and inviting responses. Apparently they forgot about the advice from the Lord to Oliver Cowdery when He told Oliver to “study it out in your mind”.
Good work. Carry on!

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By: Kim Siever https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2013/01/08/sacrament-does-not-renew-the-baptismal-covenant/comment-page-1/#comment-227219 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 14:39:46 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/?p=2761#comment-227219 In reply to Brent.

That’s interesting, Brent, and something I didn’t know. Thanks for sharing.

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By: Brent https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2013/01/08/sacrament-does-not-renew-the-baptismal-covenant/comment-page-1/#comment-227218 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 13:41:12 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/?p=2761#comment-227218 About 25 years ago I was a leader in a High Priest Group where the idea that “partaking of the sacrament renews baptismal covenants” came up several times and was questioned in our discussions. One member of that Group, who was in his 90’s, said that this idea had never been taught in the Church by anyone in earlier days. Several other gentlemen in their seventies and eighties agreed that it was a new idea or “teaching”. They, especially the 90+ year old, were worried that this new, what they felt was “false doctrine”, was catching on and would soon be taught as canonized doctrine. Now I hear this idea taught almost every Sunday in our meetings, and recently in General Conference. The interesting thing is that each time I hear it, I don’t feel a positive spiritual confirmation and warmth, never have, but rather the opposite. I suggest that anyone with questions or concerns put it to the test.

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By: Kim Siever https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2013/01/08/sacrament-does-not-renew-the-baptismal-covenant/comment-page-1/#comment-218667 Fri, 22 Aug 2014 02:56:58 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/?p=2761#comment-218667 In reply to Tyson Hunt.

Great insights, Tyson, and thanks for pointing out those scriptures.

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By: Tyson Hunt https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2013/01/08/sacrament-does-not-renew-the-baptismal-covenant/comment-page-1/#comment-218666 Fri, 22 Aug 2014 01:12:06 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/?p=2761#comment-218666 Just came across this. I agree.

I will add there the covenants come before baptism. Look at mosiah 18 “as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him”. You see they already had “entered” into this covenant therefore they were baptized. (vs 10)

Baptism serves as “a witness and a testimony” (Mosiah 21:35) of what one HAS already done. Which si “repented of their sins”

Second on sacrament the Lord warns us.

29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him. (3 Nephi 18)

If sacrament renewed your covenant making you clean you would DAMN yourself! Because if you are unworthy before you take it and you take it in hope to start fresh, and “clean” up yourself, you will drink damnation to your soul.

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By: Kim Siever https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2013/01/08/sacrament-does-not-renew-the-baptismal-covenant/comment-page-1/#comment-217848 Sat, 13 Jul 2013 23:29:40 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/?p=2761#comment-217848 In reply to Melissa Jane Cesaria Montoya.

Melissa,

Thanks for insights. I appreciate that quote, too. I definitely have to remember that.

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By: Melissa Jane Cesaria Montoya https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2013/01/08/sacrament-does-not-renew-the-baptismal-covenant/comment-page-1/#comment-217847 Sat, 13 Jul 2013 19:31:29 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/?p=2761#comment-217847 Thank you for your thoughts Kim. I’m teaching about the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper to teens in Sunday School this week and have been giving some thought to the idea that the Sacrament is renewal of Baptismal Covenants. I cannot find any but circumstantial scriptural links between the two. This doctrine is pervasive in the Modern Church regardless of scriptural support. Let’s ignore canon shall we? Most people don’t even realize that baptism of water without baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost is but half a baptism. “You might as well baptize a bag of sand as a man, if not done in view of the remission of sins and getting of the Holy Ghost. Baptism by water is but half a baptism, and is good for nothing without the other half—that is, the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The Savior says, ‘Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’ [John 3:5.]” Joseph Smith Jr http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=d859b00367c45110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

What is knowledge?

D&C 131:6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.
D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

Knowledge is receiving the Second Comforter. Even Jesus Christ. Not a topic of current lessons anywhere I am sure. So sad.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1839/27Jun39.html

Anyway, please keep up the provocative thinking and questioning. There is no doubt that correlation has destroyed the thinking of this people. We are two generations in. I weep for the future lack of knowledge as we just read our Ensigns and listen to conference without any scriptural roots and at the same time have that canon of belief on the altar as if we actually read them.

Say Hi to Mary for me.

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By: Kim Siever https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2013/01/08/sacrament-does-not-renew-the-baptismal-covenant/comment-page-1/#comment-217763 Thu, 18 Apr 2013 22:25:32 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/?p=2761#comment-217763 In reply to Joe Bloggs.

“When you state it this way it sounds like our works will save us.”

I disagree. Note that I said that the spiritual cleansing is available to us, implying that someone else provides it. This, of course, is in line with your comment about the Atonement saving us.

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By: Joe Bloggs https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2013/01/08/sacrament-does-not-renew-the-baptismal-covenant/comment-page-1/#comment-217762 Thu, 18 Apr 2013 22:22:28 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/?p=2761#comment-217762 First, beyond baptism of water and fire, the only spiritual cleansing available is through sincere repentance.

When you state it this way it sounds like our works will save us.

Isn’t it the Atonement of Jesus Christ that saves us?

As we partake of the Sacrament we witness that we are willing to take his name upon us. We only witness only our willingness. Clearly the sacrament looks to a future day when we do take His name upon us. Baptism is another way we take Jesus’s name upon us. These two ordinances are clearly linked.

In fact. I would think all ordinances are linked. They all point us to Jesus Christ. The ultimate source of light, and life. If we are to be forgiven or perfected or what ever coming unto Christ is the way. Both baptism and the sacrament are means to this end.

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By: Kim Siever https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2013/01/08/sacrament-does-not-renew-the-baptismal-covenant/comment-page-1/#comment-217731 Sat, 02 Mar 2013 05:29:43 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/?p=2761#comment-217731 In reply to Kevin L.

Kevin,

I absolutely agree we pass over ritual too much in the church. I think saying things like baptism washes away our sins and the sacrament renews our baptismal covenant and washes us clean again all contribute to that. I think it takes away from the real symbolism and ritual of the ordinances.

Think about, for example, how much of the ritual was lost when the church switched from a communal cup to individual cups.

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