His stepfather taught the lesson on David and Bathsheba and over and over talked about how Bathsheba–(yes, he said that specifically) tempted David and girls tempt boys.

I fail to see how anyone who has studied this story as it appears in the scriptures can interpret it to be anything but David’s fault. His fault for not going with his armies to war, his fault for having idle time, his fault for not averting his eyes, his fault for using his authority to take advantage of an innocent women, and so on.

I guess guys think about sex more.

Of course they do; they’ve allowed themselves to use women as their sexual objects, even if only mentally. They feel they have the freedom to use anyone they want for whatever mental purposes they want. After all, no one gets hurt, they think.

But seeing a beautiful or sexy woman and having the thought cross a guy’s mind is fairly normal and mostly (?) harmless.

Being normal is not the same thing as being right. BIologically, men are designed to impregnate many woman in order to spread around his DNA and ensure genetic diversity, ultimately guaranteeing the human species can develop traits to allow it to be naturally selected to fill ecological niches and survive catastrophic events. Monogamy fights against that. Just because sleeping around is biologically normal and monogamy is not does not mean the former is right and the latter wrong. I would argue that the entire point of coming to earth was to overcome what is natural and replace it with the spiritual.

There’s another issue, too. I guess guys think about sex more. Oh, I just cracked myself up. But seeing a beautiful or sexy woman and having the thought cross a guy’s mind is fairly normal and mostly (?) harmless. Pondering, yearning, playing with the thought—that takes it further. Women don’t do that as much. At least I and the women I know do not. You might see a very handsome and charming man and think how handsome he is, but you do not think of sleeping with him. As a rule.

So I guess guys are the weaker sex that way. But it’s one thing to say “don’t let your boobs fall out of your dress” and another to blame every thought in a guy’s head on women.

Since I’m not male, I suppose at the deepest level, I don’t know exactly “what effect dressing attractive” has on men. But believe me, I know what effect men say it has, the effects used to justify the groping on a middle school bus, the unwanted attention I received as a pubescent 5th grader, the deeply inculcated shame at seeing breasts–any breasts–even though I’m not male and not attracted to them. It was a bizarre day when I realized I view the female body through a (Mormon) male lens of distrust and caution. And then I consciously left that perspective behind, because instead of seeing individual children of God, my scrupulous attitudes towards modesty meant I was only seeing bodies and potential temptation.

As Rune points out, there is no shame in sexual attraction. There is a difference between acknowledging someone is attractive, and obsessing or fantasizing about that attractiveness to the point of losing sight of that individual’s personhood. There is shame in saying you are so unable to control your own thoughts that you must dictate the choices of others around you. And while I’m all for modesty in terms of not flaunting (whether that be your body, your car, your wealth, your home), I’m just as much for agency and individual control. Appearances may be a fun way to communicate to the world around you–or it may simply be a way to functionally prepare for a hot soccer practice, a cold fall day, or a professional presentation. And at the end of the day, appearances are a terribly shortsighted way to read other people. Which is probably why scripture tells us that the Lord looketh upon the heart.

Oh my gosh, I am SO sick of hearing this. YES. YES, we know! It is shoved in our faces absolutely constantly, and completely inescapably. We know! You think women never get sexually aroused? You think we’re all foolishly naive little dears who have no idea about the adult world?

We know. And we’re still asking -you- to be responsible for you.

I have sympathy for the fact that it can be a struggle, especially for someone who has picked up on the (erroneous) idea that attraction and arousal are in and of themselves sinful. Lots of sympathy there, let’s teach those poor people that it’s not going to damn them to experience sexual attraction. It happens, it’s normal.

BUT. My sympathy completely dries up when whatever blame, guilt, and responsibility exists on the male side gets blasted at all of the women he might ever cross paths with. You are a sexual being, you learn to deal with it. YOU. Learn to deal with it. Women absolutely cannot be expected to be responsible for the incredibly varied sexual proclivities of every man they encounter, we cannot be expected to just put ourselves away for men’s sake.

And, no, it’s not wrong to want to dress attractively, for men or women.

And re-read that “stumbling block” passage again. You think that judging women as being culpable for men’s behavior doesn’t set a whole host of morally-weighted booby-traps in their lives? That is doesn’t litter their paths with unavoidable blame and guilt for other people’s sins and supposed sins? Good grief, you cannot win at that game. You’re imposing yourself in front of your sisters and calling them sinners when they trip over you. Men can control their reactions to their own testosterone, which is not an external “stumbling block” set up for them by others: it’s their own flipping body. You learn to deal with it, or you stay away from people.

How about NOT judging women as being men’s downfall–as delightfully classically post-Nicean Christian as that is–as per that Romans passage. Don’t set women up to take the fall for other people’s choices, reactions, and behaviors.

This sentence, at least to me, seems to be saying that a woman, simply by existing and being even the least bit attractive, is a stumbling block. I’m just not sure how to deal with all these woman walking around, daring to exist, unless the male gaze falls under the responsibility of males.

Biological reasons? Hmmm. Ok, so biologically, I am wired to be able to get pregnant. I guess I can just go find anyone I want and have sex so I can keep having babies, is that what you are saying? Or maybe…just maybe, I can exert some self control, put that estrogen to good use and be faithful to my husband.

Hormones or not, we have agency. We are still responsible for our own actions and we will not be able to use the excuse, at the judgment, that so and so was wearing a skimpy skirt, or so and so was ‘looking sexy’,for thoughts or actions taken.

The counsel should really focus on our own personal responsibility for what we do and how we behave. I want my children, daughters and sons, to be modest for their OWN sakes. For personal respect. Not to stop someone else from targeting them for sexual abuse or objectification. It’s time men stopped passing the buck for their own bad behaviour.