I’m at the halfpipe last night talking to some member teens and they brought up some very good points in regard to plastic surgery, vanity, tanning and earrings.
To be modest and not draw attention to one’s body is considered a good thing by church leaders, hence the dressing modestly, no tattoos and approach to multiple piercings, etc. But it appears that the church leaders have no problem at all with breast implants, coloured contacts and tanning.
So by God’s decree we should not be wearing more than one earring per ear, but placing bags of saline in one’s chest is A-okay.
Dressing modestly implies what we put ON our bodies, so is it okay to put things INSIDE our bodies? If that’s the distinction, then why no tattoos? If no tattoos, then why is tanning alright? …. on and on it went like this.
What’s your take on these, I would say legitimate, adolescent issues?
You think I can tell this? Or you think you can tell this? For now, I’ll assume you mean the latter.
You think by looking at the wife of a Church leader, you can tell by some special gift you have whether she’s had breast augmentation surgery? Wow. I can’t. I don’t know what your system is, but it must be extraordinary. You just have a special instinct about this? You know ’em when you see ’em?
Most people can tell when a woman has had a boob job….it isn’t too hard to figure that out….no special instinct neccesary!
I’m truly amazed at your gift, and also with the level of personal contact you both seem to have with Apostles and their wives. I guess offering the least shred of evidence to show that you both possess this ability would just be too embarrassing? Or perhaps just the tiniest indication that rick’s assertions about the wives of Apostles are true? Anything?
Perhaps my sarcasm is unattractive and unkind. Let me rephrase:
I don’t believe, for the briefest of moments, that either you or rick can tell, by looking at the wife of a Church leader, whether or not she’s had breast surgery, or any other kind of surgery. If you’re so confident that you can, then I think your confidence is misplaced. You’ve given me no reason at all to believe that rick’s assertions about these leaders’ wives are true.
Given that, of course, we ought to remember that even if these women whose breasts rick has been paying such attention to have had surgery, there are instances in which such surgery is appropriate, as noted in many comments above. And, of course, it’s also none of rick’s business.
The reason why all men in leadership must not have facial hair is because of the connection with the “Bearded Polygamist†image. If you don’t believe me on this one just look at a picture of all the prophets and you tell me between which president was polygamy outlawed.
The reasons why tattoos, earrings and the like are forbidden frowned upon are:
The reasons why breast implants, tanning, and colored contacts are:
1 The church will never tall you straight out what to do with your breasts
2 People tan, implant, and color to look like other people and that is fitting in.
People who wear lots of earrings, have tattoos, get their tongues forked are trying to distinguish themselves among other people by standing out in the crowd.
Us Mormons, who dress modestly, have modest breast implants, wear only one earring per ear, sport a modest tan, and wear modestly colored contacts are trying to distinguish ourselves by blending into the crowd.
“The reason why all men in leadership must not have facial hair is because of the connection with the “Bearded Polygamist†image.”
Hmmm, interesting, I have never heard of this before (not doubting you) so when was this stated? I would be interested in hearing how it came about.
You seem to be saying that the Church continued to practice and condone polygamy all the way up to the presidency of David O. McKay. Is that really what you mean?
Okay, I’ll say it again…. It is not hard to tell whether a woman has had a boob job. There is no special gift, you don’t need to be staring or a perv, and I personally don’t feel the need to provide evidence. Nor do give a crap whether you think I can or not. It doesn’t matter whether it is the wife of a church leader or not. It is just something that isn’t hard to figure out.
There is nothing embarrassing about it either. It is the way the world is moving, most people are vain. They will tummy tuck, boob job, botox, and lipo the hell out of their bodies, and I don’t believe that it is to “blend” with the world. It is all vanity.
We have seen this in our own town, and the general population is LDS. It is just very hypocritical to say that our bodies are temples, and then alter it in any way.
And I really don’t have any problem with tattoos, piercings, or facial hair. I don’t think that someone is holier, or better than someone who has any of these things.
And just to be clear… you are telling me that if Sister So & So comes to church one day as flat as a board and has a bit of a tummy, and then the next time you see her she has lost the belly and has a D cup, you wouldn’t notice? Give me a break…there is no special gift in recognizing this!
Darlene Young wrote a very funny poem about boob jobs in Utah.
Dar, I’m sorry, but if rick is going to claim that the wives of Apostles have done this, then he’s going to have to back himself up with a little evidence, which so far he’s absolutely failed to do. You don’t live in Utah, so I can’t see how your experience in your own town has anything to do with rick’s claims above.
No, I don’t live in Utah…however I take my daughter to a dance camp at BYU every year, and have done the temple square deal. And I have seen how the woman of this area will dress (wearing things that you know darn well they are tucking & rolling their garments) and well, about the boob jobs and
botox. Like I’ve said many times now, it isn’t hard to spot. The evidence is the rather obvious perky twins, and the lack of ability to show any emotions with their facial expressions.
And by the way… the area we live in Southern Alberta, is like a little Utah.
Highly populated with LDS, who tend to set their own principles, or tweak the ones in place to better suit themselves.
I personally don’t care what people do to their bodies, what gets me going, is how hypocritical LDS people can be, and women will do almost anything for vanity, and then justify what they are doing with some ridiculous reasoning.
“Our bodies are a temple” except for…..
OK OK! Let us just end this. What would Gordon B. Hinckley say?
And if our bodies are temples . . . don’t we adorn our temples with things we don’t place or regular buildings?
P.S. Even a jeweler has to look closely at a Cubic Zirconia to tell it’s not a real diamond. So no one can really tell every time even a plastic surgeon.
So…
As Dar and Rick stroll about temple square, they use their special gift to pick out which women have had breast surgery and which haven’t. They can also tell which of these women are bishops’ wives and apostles’ wives—just by sight! (And of course, there’s no such thing as a woman with large or firm breasts who hasn’t had surgery—no such thing as a figure that’s like that naturally, and certainly no such thing as a push-up bra. Those are only an urban legend.)
Rick used to lament that he lacked superpowers, but I see he actually possesses at least one.
ltbugaf,
When I read your comments, I think of what you must be like as a ward missionary or a home teacher.
Then I think of church statistics on missionary work and retention.
Then it all makes sense.
JM:
Interesting conclusion you’ve reached: Questioning someone else’s conclusions = driving people away from the Church.
Have you considered applying this to yourself?
Dar:
The reason it matters whether the women are the wives of Church leaders, and the reason it matters whether we are talking about Utah, is that I’m responding to the claims rick made in comments 43 and 48: He claims
and that the evidence for that claim is
This naturally makes me curious how he has come to know of the wives of Utah bishops or the wives of apostles who have done this. I’m not saying it can’t have happened. I’m not even saying it would be wrong if it had happened. I’m just trying to find out if rick has something to back his claim.
Johnna, I just got to read the poem. I loved it!
ltbugaf, I find it interesting that if I say a particular group of people have had plastic surgery, you require some sort of tangible proof but if I claim to have heard God’s voice telling me the church is true, you’re fine with that sans proof.
Are you currently married to someone who’s had breast augmentation? Is that why this is such a touchy subject?
Wrong.
Anyone who is asked to test the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, or the Church, can get his own witness for himself, without having to merely take your word for it.
But why are you dodging the question yet again?
Although that’s absolutely none of your business, I’ll answer: No.
The fact that I question your claims doesn’t make it a “touchy” subject, or that I’m somehow being oversensitive. Perhaps you would do better to stop condescending and start answering.
I don’t have to answer to you or anyone.
I’d like to tell you that in the last 30 min. I’ve heard the voice of God confirming to me that the church is true. As a believing member, I’d like you to refrain from questioning me. God told me I’m right. If you don’t agree7X8Rith me, I think you need to pray about it.
Of course, that’s true. You don’t have to answer. I just thought you might like to have some credibility.
You’re lying. You’re making up facts to suit your purposes, as, unfortunately, you have before on other threads.
Even if this distasteful mockery of my religion were true, your second sentence would still make no sense. Why should anyone refrain from questioning you? You’ve never refrained from questioning the testimonies of others. I’ve never said you have to.
Well that is very presumptuous of you. I never said that Rick and I went to temple square at all. I believe if you re-read my comment, it will read that “I” take my daughter to BYU every year. NOT RICK. And yes you are pretty much right on, I walk around and stare at women’s chests all day, and use my “special gift” of distinguishing which ones are real or fake. Whatever!
I know plenty of bishop, and SP wives in our area and I figured out all the augmentations, before being told. It isn’t hard, it isn’t a gift.
And… Push up bras, really they have those. I am so stoked to go see this new invention. Thanks for the tip. I am running out to Victoria Secret now!!!
You’re right. I should have realized that rick just perceived these things about apostles’ wives in Utah by using his extrasensory perception to detect them from all the way up in Canada.
“So no one can really tell every time even a plastic surgeon.”
Well I would find a new plastic surgeon then.
ltbugaf, until you start treating me with the respect accorded to someone who has had a direct communication with God, I refuse to take anything you say seriously.
Please do not question my faith.
It sounds like you may be having some testimony problems. Can I call some missionaries in your area to come and pray with you?
Perhaps that’s meant to satirize something, but I don’t know what.
Juvenile mockery is no substitute for evidence or logic.
Evidence and logic can teach you many things of this world, ltbugaf, but as some point you really have to put your faith in Him.
Have you been reading your scriptures faithfully?
All of your questioning can be resolved by careful study of the scriptures.
Rick, you seem to think there’s something unresolved in my mind. There isn’t. I’m quite firm in my belief that you’ve lied. If you’d like to show otherwise, go ahead.
You will never have a true knowledge of my faithfulness until you become like a child and listen to the small, still voice telling you I am correct.
Your own testimony and worthiness problems aside, I think you can eventually get to a place, spiritually, where you will recognize the truth in my words.
Dar in Comment #75 you stated:
As you quoted me from my post #62. But you are missing the point.
I have met men who have become women. And the only way I can tell about their breast surgery is . . . breasts like that don’t grow on male bodies. You are wrong. If you have the right surgeon no one would be able to tell just by looking at you fully clothes or not. That is just a simple fact.
Now lets get back to our kids and spouses and stop this silly endeavor? Truce anyone?
I’m not sure what rick has been getting at with this little game he’s playing. I think perhaps he believes he’s satirizing me—that his responses somehow reflect what I’m saying to him. They don’t. I’ve never told him he can’t question my faith. Maybe he’s just angry at having his dishonesty exposed, and, having nothing sensible to say, falls back on trying to annoy me into leaving. I don’t know. Apparently he’s not going to tell us.
…or maybe he’s upset about having been completely wrong when he said “if I claim to have heard God’s voice telling me the church is true, you’re fine with that sans proof.”
Or maybe it’s you,ltbugaf. You make it very difficult to discuss anything.
Perhaps you should try to accept everyones opinions, even though they may be different than yours.
You are very defensive, and it isn’t nice to call people liars, especially when you claim to be following Christ’s ways.
Actually, you are quite hypocritical in that you call people “condescending” and “juvenile”, and you are doing exactly that.
I guess you didn’t read the let’s all get along and stop this nonsense posts.
I’m done.
It is not putting a pleasant
OOPS.. I really was done.
Please disregard that last line.
When they’re lying, sometimes it’s necessary.
Defensive of what? Of the truth? Of the necessity to give some substance to one’s claims and accusations?
I think he means defensive of yourself. You aren’t ALWAYS right, you know. It’s ok to admit that. And when you don’t agree with someone you don’t HAVE to get personal and then jump on them when they get personal back. You are being nicer than you used to be, but you still have a self righteousness that isn’t really conducive to playing nicely together. Let’s all be grown ups now.
I think basic honesty is necessary to a reasonable debate. People shouldn’t manufacture “facts” to support their positions.
For that reason, it’s not “getting personal” to point out that someone is not being honest. Rick is not being honest when he says he knows of Apostles’ wives and the wives of Utah bishops are having plastic surgery that sends a message of acceptance or endorsement. I’ve given him ample opportunities to show that I’m wrong. If he wants to, he still can.
And way back at Comment 50…
rick said: “I don’t feel the need to cite every person’s name or how I know they’ve had breast augmentation on a public weblog, thank-you.”
LET IT GO!!
Yes, Dar. I already know that rick refused to give any evidence whatsoever that he wasn’t lying. He still refuses to do so. I’m not sure why you feel the need to point this out. I ask him what evidence he has to support his claim, and he says he doesn’t feel the need to give any. Got it.
Before we were interrupted we were, I believe, discussing breast implants in Utah.
It is a well known fact among Salt Lake members that there is a ward in the Salt Lake area called the ‘Silicon Ward’ for reasons that should be fairly obvious.
Anyone who has spent any time around the LDS elite in Utah can attest to the ‘Barbie-like’ appearance of many of the female members. Visual confirmation of augmentation is fairly easy to achieve.
For all the information you never wanted to know vis-a-vis recognizing implants, please refer to any of the many, many pages on the Internet that show how to spot them.
If the Church would really like to put an end to all the petty squabbling over this and many other issues (drinking Pepsi anyone?) all they would have to do is issue a direct statement denouncing or supporting it.
As is usual, they have not made a statement which leaves the membership at large to fight over whose naval-gazing is correct.
I believe that issues like this one are one of the main sources for member-on-member violence – ok maybe that’s a bit much – let’s say conflict, than any weighty topics that actually matter.
I mean, good grief!
The membership should not have to argue amongst themselves in regard to this petty minutia – there are bigger fishes to fry.
Where is this a well-known fact? Are you going to show any evidence for this claim, or just harrumph again that I have no right to challenge it?
In that case, it should be no problem at all for you to produce someone who has spent time around the LDS elite in Utah who will confirm your story.
Where do you see the membership arguing among themselves in regard to this? Where is this causing conflict in the Church?
… and by the way, are you still standing by the announcement you made in comment 70?
Utah surgery statistics aside, I think the original question was about whether getting implants is morally comparable to tattoos and peircings. This is the subject I would like to return to.
Personally I think it’s not doctrinal to believe that respecting one’s temple means NO body alterations whatsoever, otherwise not even the conservative two earrings would still be allowed in women. This is why I think it has more to do with social statements.
I would argue that tummy tucks and MODERATE breast implants really don’t make any more of a social statement than conservative jewelry and make-up (and no I have not had these procedures in case you are wondering, but I don’t have a problem with women who do it tastefully). Pehaps it is indeed about vanity, but keep in mind that all jewelry, makeup, hairstyles and manicures are about vanity as well really, not to mention abdominal crunches for a flatter tummy.
Oversized boob jobs, on the other hand, certainly make an obvious lame statement. On the other hand there are some very natural looking “anatomical” shaped implants that when utilized in a smaller cc size on a previously smaller-than-size-A chested women can look very natural indeed. Probably not so detectable as the showy high-on-the-chest-cavity half-melon variety.
Anyhow, I think the motivation behind the action is key here. Is the alteration due to excessive vanity, social rebellion, overt attempts at sexual attetion or just a desire to not feel embarrassed or self-conscious?
I do wish that the counsel had simply been to avoid extremes in fashion and body alteration, and then let the people govern for themselves, according to their own conscience, and be likewise accountable. It would save everybody from a lot of arguing. And yes ltbugaff, I have heard many arguments among the membership about these things first hand, and NO, ltbugaff, I am not saying that I think I am smarter and more spiritual than the church leadership, I just said I “wish….”.
And ltbugaff, once again I’d like to point out that trying to corner somebody into clarifying or justifying some side statement they made is usually a dead end road. Certainly this tactic may have its usefulness on some occasions, but in most cases you pursue this based on some little comment that is not really that central to the original topic in the first place. It’s very distracting. I know what you are trying to do but we are not in the court room here. And even if Utah Mormon women do not have a higher rate or breast surgery, I think we all know, first hand, of Mormon women who have had the operation (I can certainly think of a few who have TOLD me so). What really matters to the conversation is that there are Mormon women who do indeed get implants, be it Utah or wherever. Anyhow, why not spend more energy contributing your own opinions and/or facts as a reply rather than invest SO much time trying to prove how unsubstantiated someone else is on EVERY SINGLE little comment they make? Sure, take your stab at someone’s reasoning if you like, but be a little more selective about what you tenaciously pursue OK?
Another thought on vanity, I suppose eliminating facial hair in women could also be seen as vanity, I forgot to include that on my list. Don’t worry Mary, I don’t have a problem with it, I went and got a few laser zaps on my upper lip and I certainly don’t feel one bit guilty!
I think it’s justified in this case. Rick is making very specific claims that call for support. He claims to have reliable information that (1) two or more Utah Bishops’ wives and (2) two or more Apostles’ wives have fake breasts. Now, there are, to my knowledge, only 14 women in the world who fit into the latter class. It shouldn’t be hard to support that claim if it’s true, or to simply admit that he was making it up if it’s false. So far, he hasn’t provided any evidence at all that either assertion is true, and both should evoke skepticism.
I’m not trying to derail the conversation off onto a side line, but at the same time, I don’t think we should just let fantastic claims such as these go unchallenged.
Are you saying that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?
Hmmm. How delightfully ironic.
So you still don’t want to answer?
…and no, I’m not asking for extraordinary evidence. Just any old ordinary, run-of-the-mill evidence will be better than the nothing you’ve offered so far.
…and feel free, if you’re in the mood, to explain why my request for evidence is ironic. I assume you’re still founding this on the untrue and thoroughly discredited claim you made about me in comment 68, but don’t let me put words in your mouth.