Is the act of paying a tithe a financial transaction in the traditional sense?
i.e. I pay you $ XXX.XX and I get YYYYYY
or
i.e. I have given you YYYYYY, now you owe me $ XXX.XX
I’d like to know what the actual church stance is on this as well as anyone’s personal views on the matter.
Since I’ve never paid tithing, I really have no idea how it is handled and I’m quite curious.
Rick,
I’m not sure what the official position is on this.
My personal position on this is as followes:
I get from God:
– Life
– Family
– Freedom to make choices
– Ability to work and provide for my family
Or in other words, all that I have.
In return, I am asked to give back to God 10% of my increase.
I measure increase as the financial gain that I realize due to my labors.
As it is difficult to return this 10% to God in person, I am able to give it to a steward that I trust to use the money as God would have it used.
After I have given the tithing money to the steward, it is out of my hands and I don’t care what happens to it as it is now the steward’s responsibility.
I also believe that regardless of the religion or belief that one belongs to or has, the paying of a tithe of your increase to one whom you deem as an authorized and trustworthy steward will be looked at favorably by God.
I don’t know what the official stance is on this, all I know is that when we pay our tithing we never run short, we never have to worry about being taken care of financially. The spiritual blessings are myriad, knowledge of being obedient.
I don’t think it is a financial transaction per se, because we only give 10% and the wealth of blessings in return can’t be repaid.
I guess the follow-up question would also be, if you cease the payment of tithing would all of the benefits you’ve been getting go away, or do they continue regardless of whether you’ve been paying tithing or not.
I also enjoy having:
– Life
– Family
– Freedom to make choices
– Ability to work and provide for my family
But, I haven’t paid on red cent for any of it.
Am I not in a state of being in debt?
Well, perhaps a more appropriate financial analogy would be paying a tip.
Although not required, it is appreciated by the one receiving.
And there is a better chance that your glass of water will always be full!
rick,
You know what a cynic I can be. But having lived both sides, I wouldn’t dare not pay tithing now. I will say most of the blessings are spritual. I also believe people in other churches who practice tithing are equally blessed. Regarding your debt question, it doesn’t work that way. When someone realizes they have sinned by short changing the Lord, they repent by paying a full tithe on their increase from then on.
When a person belongs to a country club they pay money to belong. When a person belongs to health club, they pay money to belong. When a person belongs to a church, they pay money to belong.
The Lord allows the rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous.
The Lord allows bad things to happen to good people and good things to happen to bad people.
What a person gets out of paying tithing depends on their personal beliefs.
The Church on the other hands is very much like the country club bookkeeper. If you don’t pay your money you cannot go to the parties, I mean the Temple.
If you want to be on fairways or the pews on Sundays, you pay money.
At least on the Pew, you can sleep.
“When a person belongs to a church, they pay money to belong.”
This logic is skewed. We don’t pay money to belong to church, we pay tithing and offerings to help those who are less able to help and to be obedient to the Lord and to take care of the church needs. The “payment” we give for being members of the Church is a broken heart and a contrite spirit. People who do NOT pay tithing are not barred from being members of the Church, whereas when you have a club memebrship, you are removed if you don’t pay your dues.
I pay tithing more along the lines of your second example. I feel the Lord has blessed me with many things that have allowed me to be in a position to have increase. He’s given me talents, skills, knowledge, helped me attain an education, and so forth. I pay tithing as a way of acknowledging that I didn’t do it all myself.
Tithing is not an exchange. It is not a transaction where I give you something for which you give me something in return. The church does not give me something in return for paying my tithing. However, that said, there are things you cannot do in the church if you do not pay your tithing, such as being called in a leadership role, or getting a temple recommend.
Tithing is a commandment wherein the Lord tests our obedience to him. We pay tithing not because the Lord needs money, but because money is vital to our survival and the Lord wants to see just how faithful we are to his commands, not just to our own satisfactions.
The Lord, however, does not make our sacrifice be in vain. In fact, he says in Malachi 3:10:
Dan’s right. And Bill, oh I mean George, as usual, is trying to be funny, I think?
“When someone realizes they have sinned by short changing the Lord, they repent by paying a full tithe on their increase from then on.”
So SteveEM, the idea of asking for back-tithing would make no sense, right?
“People who do NOT pay tithing are not barred from being members of the Church…”
But they are barred from getting into the highest, bestest heaven aren’t they, Mary?
“…there are things you cannot do in the church if you do not pay your tithing…”
So Dan, the way you describe it, it’s a form of spiritual extortion. Pay up because we say so. You wanna keep that position you’ve got. Pay up. You like going to the big house on the hill. Pay up.
Sounds awfully cold. It can’t possibly really be like that, can it?
Rick,
think of it this way, why should the Lord bless you if you don’t keep his commandments?
going to the temple is a blessing, and in these last days of such hate and violence, almost a requirement to stay close to the Spirit. Positions in the church are all voluntary, and no one should be aspiring to be a bishop, relief society president, etc. Those are tough callings. But they immensely bless the lives of both the individual in the calling and the people they are to serve. It’s not as if paying tithing makes your life easier, because you can now go to the temple or serve in leadership callings. It isn’t easy. There is work to do at the temple. You only go to the temple once for yourself. All other trips to the temple are in the service of others, and the work is plentiful. In fact, there are not enough workers for what needs to be done at the temple.
A calling of leadership in the church is not easy. It will break your normal routine. People will call you in the middle of the night begging to talk to you about a problem they are dealing with. Time with your family will be shortened. It is, in other words, a sacrifice.
The importance of the temple and leadership callings is in the service they provide for others. If you do not pay your tithing, you lose out on opportunities of serving your fellow man in ways far more influential than just being a normal lay member. In fact, if all you do is just go to church on Sundays, how do you serve another person? is that not just self-serving?
The heart at the center of the Kingdom of God, the Zion we are creating, is love and charity, the serving of others. If you cannot show you are willing to sacrifice your work (i.e. the cash that is the conversion of your hard labor into a currency for exchange), how can the Lord trust you to serve in callings of influence wherein you must serve others? That’s the importance of tithing in regards to leadership positions.
Nothing is easy in this church. Because it is no ordinary church. We are building the foundations of the Kingdom of God. We are building Zion. Zion does not magically appear. It happens from the ground up, from the foundation to the first floorboards. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. It is His work we do. We show our willingness to sacrifice by paying our tithing, so the Lord can trust us in positions of influence where our service will be of greater import.
Is that less cold? ;)
Dan, Mary,
F.W.I.W…
As you are probably both aware, Rick isn’t a member of the church. Your arguments in favor of paying tithing are using a different language that may or may not be effective in explaining your view.
You are speaking of blessings, spirituality, and scriptures. To you, these have intrinsic meaning and put the subject of tithing in a context that you are comfortable with.
I highly doubt that Rick shares your views and understanding of the intrinsic importance of tithing, thus his question.
If you were able to share your understanding and insights related to tithing without all the “LDS-Speak”, it might be a more productive discussion.
$0.02
(Rick, no offence intended)
There are several reasons paying tithing.
– Demonstrate obedience to the commandments given in both ancient and modern revelation.
– Faith in inheriting rich blessings from heaven (either in this life or the life to come). This is also faith that the Lord will fulfill the promise that He has made in Malachi 3:10-12.
– A desire to live closer to Holy Spirit so that it can have a better positive influence in your life.
– Setting an example for others
– Demonstrating to yourself that you are worthy to visit the big temple on top of the hill and also are worthy to function righteously in those important church callings that come from time to time.
– Insurance against the Destroying Angel (as described in Malachi 3:10-12 and elsewhere.)
– A desire to show that you love God above Manna and worldly possessions.
– Learning about and practicing good family financial planning
– IRS Tax Deductions
– Charitable to donation to a worthy organization and cause
–
“…why should the Lord bless you if you don’t keep his commandments?”
But Dan, he has already. I can assure you if I’ve kept any of His commandments it was by coincidence at best. As a matter of fact, I know I’ve broken several. Lately. I still have all sorts of ‘blessings’.
That aside, let’s assume I want even *more* blessings, like temple attendance and a higher calling. It sounds like I’d be expected to make a sacrifice (tithing) so I’d be given the opportunity to make more sacrifices (hold a calling, make covenants in the temple).
So for the opportunity of helping out all mankind I have to pay for the privilege. Here’s a crazy thought: why not just let me be all that I can be without a service charge? The whole concept of paying to get to be a better person reeks of Scientology.
Roland, if two of the top ten reasons for paying tithing include Devil insurance and tax deductions, I don’t really see much upside to tithing.
Oh and JM,
“(Rick, no offence intended)”
That’s okay, I didn’t understand a word of what you just said, so I can hardly take offence… :P
“But they are barred from getting into the highest, bestest heaven aren’t they, Mary”
Well, possibly, but that judgement is left up to the Lord, not us.
JM
“Your arguments in favor of paying tithing are using a different language that may or may not be effective in explaining your view.”
Yes, I know, but there is no other way to describe it. Tithing is a spiritual law and somsone who doesn’t understand the principle won’t understand the reasons.
Rick
And no, you don’t pay to be a better person. Tithing is only one of the laws of obedience. There is much more to it than that. And it truly isn’t much of a hardship at all, except for those who don’t pay it.
First of all, that’s weird that my post on my own blog got linked here. an interesting quirk in WordPress….
Rick,
first off, no one is stopping you from serving others at your own will. Feel free to call people to see how they are doing. Volunteer to assist those in need. Share of your time and energies. You don’t have to be in a position of influence to do those. I’m sorry I didn’t explain that well enough.
And no, this is nothing like Scientology, where the higher you go, the more you pay, and the more secretive you get. Everybody pays the same amount in tithing from the prophet on down to a deacon.
Dan, I believe you meant to say that everybody pays the same percentage, not the same amount.
Although it is possible that your average deacon makes as much money as the profit…er, I mean prophet.
That’s how WordPress handles trackbacks, Dan.
JM,
thanks, yeah, that’s what i meant. we all pay the same percentage. :)
“And it truly isn’t much of a hardship at all, except for those who don’t pay it.”
I don’t follow you here.
Am I experiencing hardship that I don’t know about?
Rick
Sorry, I meant to say it is percieved as a hardship. It’s not a hardship in anyway to pay tithing. Even when you have no money, because if you don’t, you don’t pay it. But for people who don’t understand the law of tithing it is perceived as a hardship usually.
Mary even if you don’t have any money as in a paying job you can still pay tithes on your talents. It may not be something that you can put on the tithing slip but you can volunteer to clean the church building, volunteer when someone needs special help, when the Compassionate Leader calls for help with meals etc. You are tithing your time and talents and strenghts. It isn’t always about the $ sign. Dan I agreed with your explanation.
I can’t imagine NOT paying tithing.I do it because it is asked of me by the Lord. People need to also understand that nowhere does it state that if you pay tithing you will get monetary benifits. I don’t do it because I WANT/NEED blessings. I do it because it is a part of me and who I am.
I pay my tithing (x) and I get the satisfaction knowing that I have paid my tithing (y).
Tithing should be in my opinion more of a principle of obedience rather than “what I get in return”, although many people do enjoy many blessings in various degrees from paying it.
Jalis
Great site by the way.
Tithing under the Law of Moses. Tithing under the Law of Moses was somewhat tedious and demanding. The Jew was to give a tenth of his crops and a tenth of his flocks (Lev. 27; Deut. 14). A tenth, it appears, was to be paid to the Levites (priests, Num. 18: 21-32). All things considered, the Jew under the law appears to have been required to give anywhere from 20 to 38 percent of his income. The laws regulating giving under the law were very exacting (Lev. 27; Deut. 14).
Giving, as taught in the gospel. When one comes to the Covenant or Testament of Christ, one finds a total absence of teaching regarding tithing. Instead of tithing, one is to give into the treasury of the local church as “he has been prospered” (I Cor. 16: 2). Giving is to be based on first having given oneself to the Lord and in proportion to love (2 Cor. 8: 5, 8). There must be a willing mind, as purposed in heart, and cheerful and liberal (2 Cor. 8: 12; 9: 7; 6). Giving to the truly needy is also taught (Eph. 4: 28).
The subject of tithing, as observed, pertained to the Jews and the Law of Moses. That system or law has been “blotted out” and “nailed to the cross” (Col. 2: 14). The New Testament, Jesus’ law and covenant, does not stipulate the amount to be given, but provides principles to guide the Christian in his giving. The gospel also contains the ultimate example of giving: The Father gave his Son and Jesus divested himself of heaven’s glory and died on the cross (2 Cor. 8: 9). In urging giving we read, “Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift” (2 Cor. 9:15).
So michael j elzey, does that mean it is a financial transaction in the traditional sense or not?
Also, and absolutely no offence is intended with this statement, our kind heavenly father blessed some of his children to be generous with the blessed carriage return and line feed (a bounty if ever there was one); the use of which makes large blocks of text more easily read.
I would wish this blessing upon you and your progeny forever and ever. I say this in the name of… well I think you get the idea.
One thing that I have learned is to not take another’s word for anything unless they can back it up. I dont know how anyone can justify putting this Law ( the tithe) on another. Its putting yourself under the law and the law saved no one. In christ Jesus the law has no hold on anyone, the law is dead As is the tithe.
I no longer call myself a christian Because most Christian leaders have given Jesus a bad name and dont teach the whole truth. They have decided to serve $$$. Jesus said to feed my sheep and i didn’t hear him say to fleese them. Love God and love your neighbor and give from your heart not meaning just money.
I now call myself a believer.
Believe in the lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved! Now thats good news!
Michael Elzey: It would be easy enough to go along with your intepretation of the Bible regarding the Law of Tithing except for one thing: God revealed it to his people anew in the Doctrine & Covenants. It isn’t dead.
or show me your proof. we both know its not there.
I don’t need to show it in the New Testament, Michael. It’s in the Doctrine & Covenants. My “proof” is the revelation given in Section 119. YOUR “proof” of the truthfulness of that revelation is the witness of the Holy Ghost, which you can receive if you will seek it with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ (see Moroni 10:3-5).
what bible are you reading from?
there is no moroni or section 119
Moroni, as I hope you’re alerady aware, is in the Book of Mormon. Section 119 is in the Doctrine & Covenants, as I already told you.
Please don’t play dumb if you want to have a meaningful discussion.
Michael
Interesting ideal Michael Elzey has put forth. Do not pay tithes and offerings and do not attend church and call yourself a christian.
That is kind of like going to a restaurant and eating their food without paying for it and calling yourself honest?
I guess thieves come in all shapes and religions.
It works for a whole continent of Catholics (South America), so why not?
That is kind of like going to a restaurant and eating their food without paying for it and calling yourself honest?
I guess thieves come in all shapes and religions.
Now i see who and what you are. May god bless you.
Isn’t that a failure to differentiate between belief and Church membership? One can be an atheist without contributing money to the local atheist organization. However, if one wants to be considered a member of said organization, it may (or may not) be expected that one will make contributions to it. The same thing applies to churches.
…That is not to say, of course, that tithing is a “membership fee” for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It clearly is not, as Mary already explained in comment #7.
Mormonism contradicts God’s word. God’s word affirms its sufficiency, the Book of Mormon denies the completeness of the Bible (2 Tim. 3: 16, 17; I Nephi 13: 24-32). The Book of Mormon teaches God has flesh and blood, the Bible denies this (Ether 3: 8, 9; I Cor. 15: 50, Jn. 4: 24). The Book of Mormon says that Jesus is the Father, the Bible teaches they are separate entities (Ether 3: 14; 2 Cor. 13: 14, Eph. 4: 4-6). The Bible says Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea, the Book of Mormon says Jesus was born in Jerusalem (Matt. 2: 1; Alma 7: 10).
Concerned reader, Mormonism is not only foreign to the scriptures, it is diametrically opposed to God’s word. The only way you can be a Mormon is by accepting the Book of Mormon. Accepting the truth found in the Bible makes one a Christian, not a Mormon (Lk. 8: 11, I Pet. 4:
Michael, your claims have been answered so completely and so frequently that there’s little point in doing it all over again here. I recommend checking Jeff Lindsay’s web site at http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/ as one of several places you can read the responses to your tired questions.
Have you ever noticed how those who want to force their view of religion on you come across being unChrist like?
I find it amazing that these same people who love to use scripture out of context are so wrong in what the writer was talking about.
I feel sorry for them.
The sad part is that usually they really want to be Mormons and are afraid of what others might say. Kinda like in Lehi’s dream.
LOL! come now. At least this guy admits it. Thats the first thing i see when i clicked your link. Try pointing to something in the bible. What did Jesus say? I would trust the ones that walked with Christ. There are many cults and false teachers out there and its very easy for anyone to be lead astray. I really dont know what happened to Mr. Smith but i do know that there are many voices out there. Think spiritual here if you can. I myself have heard some of the spiritual voices. Some came to pass and some didn’t. so who was speaking here? i’ll give you a example.
First of all i’m a little nobody driveing a delivery truck. I come to a stop light and its red. In front of me are two motorcycles. A guy and a young lady on one and another guy on the other. I bump my horn by accident and the young lady turns around she looks to be about 16 maybe. She smiles a big beautiful smile. You could just see the love in this girls heart. I threw my hands up as to signal i hit the horn by accident.
I then hear a voice that there is going to be a accident and was told to pray. And i thought, This is somebodys daughter that is loved very much and prayed no lord let this accident not be and then prayed against this accident and for a covering around these 3. The light turns green and they take off and i’m still praying in this slow truck. They were about 1/4 mile ahead of me in no time and were at the next light. There was a accident by the time i got there. When i got there one guy was walking his bike to the side of the road and the girl and the other guy were in the middle of twoway traffic and it was busy. They were standing on a narrow concrete strip in the middle and she was holding her ankle but they were fine. as i went buy she looked at me and read my lips. (God loves you!)
this no doubt was gods spirit speaking to me. I’m still amazed how god wanted to use me at this time and he needed my prayers or he just wanted to show me how he works. I think we miss it when we say i’m a mormon or i’m a this or that. That aint what god wants!
He wants what we all want and thats to be loved! To have fellowship with one another. And for people to join together as one.
Religion divides us.
the greatest commandent is to love the lord your god with all your heart and the second is to love your neighbor. If we all follow these greatest 2 all the rest will fall into place.
Are the voices telling you to hurt yourself or others?
Michael Elzey – I was wondering what your thoughts are regarding the way the NT was put together. The Catholics had letters the Apostles wrote and used some of them and not others. They were not written one after the other but at different times. For example, Revelation was not the last one written.
The the Church of England changed things and then others have changed the Bible you read. So do you use the Catholic Bible, The KJ or some other Bible as your text?
Its still the word of god. Matt. mark,luke, well they all walked with Jesus and Jesus was their teacher. Acts 1 and 2 the begining of the church and the holy spirit comes into the picture. Thats the church.
My bible has 4 translations in it and i read the niv most of the time when i read. I’m not a member of any church at this time.
My foundation is Christ Jesus and him only do i trust. And then there was Paul. There were many other writings that didn’t make it into the book. but the gospel is sinple. We all need Jesus. He is the only way. I’ve never read the writtings of Mr. Smith and dont need to. I am covered by God’s grace. As you are if you believe.
Joseph Smith did not write the Book of Mormon. He wrote his own history, but he did not have the education to write the Book of Mormon. He translated it and this was verified by other experts.
Jesus is the Way. We all know that, it is taught in our Church and always will be. He is the Foundation of truth and righteousness and I follow Him. His spirit has testified to me that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I know the fruits of the Spirit, hopefully you do?
I see lots of greed in churches where they worship the plate more than god. I give when i see a need. Money / time what ever. IMO as long as you keep Jesus the center of your focus you’ll do just fine. Mormon or not.
Michael
I read them all the time. Jesus is the centre of my life and the life of Latter day Saints (or at least that is the goal and what people work towards). The laws are not dead, some are complete in Christ. But not all are dead. The law of Moses was completed in Christ. But there are eternal laws and tithing is a part of them.
My Saviour also didn’t end His teachings in the New Testament. He is a resurrected Being and His teachings continue.
The New Testament speaks of Tithing.
See Hebrews Chapter 5.
Where does it say the law of the Tithe is dead? Specifically.
Mormon was a man, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saint. I am LDS.