I cam across an article in Babytalk magazine?¢‚Ǩ‚Äùyes, the same one that has much of the United States in an uproar, or so the media would have us believe?¢‚Ǩ‚Äùand i found a couple of items interesting. I thought I’d post them here.
A [USA] survey . . . published in The Journal of the American Dietetic Association found that 57 percent of those polled said that women should not have a right to breastfeed in public.
Only 10 percent of mothers who work full-time [still breastfeed] their baby at 6 months, according to a 2005 CDC report.
The Journal of the American Dietetic Association’s survey found that only 47 percent of [employers] favored longer maternity leaves, and only 43 percent supported giving women a private room to pump in at work.
A mom should breastfeed her baby for at least the first year of life, as recommended by the American Academy of Pediatrics.. . . In 2004 . . . about 70 percent of U.S. mothers reported that they had tried breastfeeding, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). That’s up from 55 percent in 1993. . . . At 6 months, only 36 percent were still nursing. At 12 months, the number dips to 17 percent
Oh, and thanks to fMh for posting the link.
I served my mission in Honduras, where it was quite common to see women breastfeeding. In fact, the first time I shared the first vision, the woman listening whipped out her mammary to provide an afternoon snack for her child.
I froze. I stared.
My comp wondered what the deal was. Then, he realized I had yet to be numbed and desensitized by Honduran women’s breasts. I saw more boobs in those two years than I care to remember.
I think it’s largely cultural indoctrination. Here, it’s taboo. There, it’s normal. When I see a boob on the front cover of Babytalk magazine, I don’t think “ahh, how cute, a baby feeding”. I think “wow, that’s a big boob”. I don’t want to see that boob. I don’t want to go grocery shopping and have to feel guilty for seeing it. I can’t help the feelings of guilt (perhaps I can blame that on my cultural upbrining?), but regardless, I get those feelings.
I’m against breastfeeding in public.
When I saw the photo, I thought, “Oh, hey, that baby has the same colour of eyes my baby does.”
I believe women should be allowed the privillege of breast feeding thier children whenever the child is hungry or needs nursing. It is a natural part of being a baby and there is nothing wrong or sexual about a woman breast feeding.
Anyone who dares to disagree with me on this topic is a prude.
If you are a PRUDE, then show me the passage of scripture where this is bad.
I’m far from being a prude (I can’t stand prudes), but I do think there should be common decency in this matter.
As long as the mother is being discreet about it, I’m fine with that. When I said “breastfeeding in public”, I meant to say “letting the public see your boob”.
If you cover yourself while breastfeeding your child, then please, go right ahead. But when you’re in a testimony meeting in a Honduran chapel, and let you boob hang out while sitting on the stand awaiting your turn to bear your testimony, then we’ve got a problem.
I have no issue with mothers nursing their children wherever they choose, so long as I don’t have to see any exposed flesh.
Connor
I have yet to meet a woman who is indiscreet. Common decency in my opinion is respecting a baby’s right to be fed when and where she (or he) needs to be fed. I find men baring big bellies over short shorts, or girls hanging out of halter tops and wearing pants that show too much of the nether region to be offensive.
I rarely show much skin, but I don’t put a blanket over my baby’s head because she doesn’t like it, I don’t like it and I think it is rude.
“I have no issue with mothers nursing their children wherever they choose, so long as I don’t have to see any exposed flesh.”
Do you feel the same about teenagers wearing midriff tops or low rise pants? How about men in speedos? Or women skating down the boardwalk on a California beach in bikinis? At least breastfeeding has a purpose. A very vital and important purpose. I think the important thing is to raise our children to know what breasts are for. It is society that has created the taboo, not the reality. We NEED breasts to feed our babies. And yes they can’t be flat (but oh it’s ok to see a man flashing his breasts, because they aren’t a sexual object to women, but because men view female breasts as sexual they have to be totally covered when a baby is being fed) because they need to have room for those mammary glands to produce lots of healthy creamy milk to feed those hungry babies.
I have no issue with mothers nursing their children wherever or however they choose. Babies don’t care as long as they get their milk. I can’t blame them. Why should OUR rights override theirs??
I think one thing to note is the location. If you go to the beach, you should expect to see people in speedos and bikinis. If you watch a rated R movie, you should expect that you’ll probably see a movie.
However, if you go to the grocery store, I’m certainly not expecting to see a woman’s breast. Additionally, the chance of the baby detaching from the breast to catch a breath opens the possibility of the woman’s nipple being exposed to public view. That, I think, is public indecency.
I’ll agree that society has created the taboo, but it exists regardless of logical opposition to it. I know that a breast is for feeding a baby, but when I see one, my mind is led to think things I would rather not. For me, seeing an exposed breast in public is pornography.
You say you have yet to meet a women who is indiscreet, but perhaps we’re getting into semantics. If you prefer not to cover yourself with a blanket, that means that you might also end up exposing your full breast to public view while feeding your child. Any precautions to prevent that, I think are necessary. Whether that be covering yourself up, removing yourself to a secluded location, or waiting until you have a private moment, I cannot say which is best.
All I know is that I don’t want to see exposed breasts in unexpected places, just as I also don’t want to see pop-up advertisements with naked women while surfing the internet. It’s a matter of choice. I can choose to not go to the beach, or choose to not see a rated R movie. But I can’t choose when you’ll accidentally let your breast be exposed as I walk by in a restaurant.
The solution is easy, Connor: don’t look at women breastfeeding.
I don’t stare, but it’s impossible to avoid all possible encounters when your eyes roam as you walk and conduct your daily affairs. Knowing who to look at and who not to is a futile task.
If I see a woman breastfeeding, sure, I’ll turn away. But if when I glance at the woman at the table next to me, and her breast is exposed, it’s too little too late.
“However, if you go to the grocery store, I’m certainly not expecting to see a woman’s breast. Additionally, the chance of the baby detaching from the breast to catch a breath opens the possibility of the woman’s nipple being exposed to public view. That, I think, is public indecency.”
I have a tendency not to look at women’s breasts, or any other body part which might seem ‘indecent”. When I go to the grocery store, I don’t really check out other people, I see them, yes, but I don’t go over their body to make sure they are covered or not. I shop. Of course, pushing a cart, wearing a baby and making sure my other two are in tow probably keeps me from having the time and ability to peruse other people. Then again, I also have things to buy and I need to pay attention to that.
Ok, I have another request. If you or anyone thinks I should make sure I don’t expose myself in public, maybe bottle fed babies should be covered with a blanket too? Private moment? Sometimes that isn’t possible. I am going to go under the assumption that you don’t have a small baby, perhaps never had, since you seem to be unaware that babies sometimes CANNOT wait. :) And if I have to seclude MYSELF, then I will ask that anyone who is eating period should be secluded as well. I find the way some people eat to be rather disgusting and rude.
I have been breastfeeding for 7.5 years straight. Yep, 7.5 years. And I can promise you that I have enough experience and adeptness that there is no way I am going to show you or anyone else skin unless I want to. I have learned to anticipate when my baby is planning on removing her/himself.
I don’t want to see exposed skin when I walk down the street, but unfortunately I see far too much, not just teenagers, but adults who think it’s ok to wear tiny pieces of clothing overtop of not so tiny bodies. I have no choice, I have to walk down the street. I would also like my children to not be exposed to vulgar language, or smoking, but if I am walking down the street, this often happens, if I am waiting at a bus stop (well not so much anymore) this happens. How about these things stop too?
How about, instead of adults expounding about what they think are their rights of viewing, they remember they are ADULTS. Babies are babies, they understand three things, the need to be loved, comfortable and fed. Oh wait. That’s all the same thing. Babies understand what love is and what neglect is, if only at a base level. Sometimes I have waited to nurse my baby when I can find a comfortable place. Not because I am afraid to expose myself, but because it just isn’t possible where I am at. But I still maintain, if other people have a right to eat wherever they are and however they are, then so does my baby.
I think the real issue is that society has a problem with women as mothers. It’s uncomfortable to see a woman in a maternal role, as it changes her sexuality, because women are supposed to be for men’s pleasure, right? At least that is what society and Hollywood seem to perpetuate. But when a woman shows a motherly purpose that is somewhat frightening, it takes away this control. Subconciously perhaps? Possibly. So it’s ok for a woman to expose most of her breast as long as a baby isn’t attached to it, but when a baby is attached, or was a moment ago, that creates fear and abhorrence.
Ah, I see. You are a bachelor. Ok, one of these days you will learn. Husbands do. I hope that you are able to support your wife in breastfeeding your babies and realising the great, wonderful God-given gift you are giving them.
Kim’s right, don’t look at women breastfeeding. But if you do, instead of looking horrified at the thought, smile at her and give her a thumbs up. She may be doing it after a lot of pressure NOT too, she may be a new mum. But nothing is more heartening than to be given a hearty congratulations and kudos that she is doing this for her baby. Breastfeeding mums need support, not condemnation.
Let me reiterate: I do not stare. I just don’t want to have to see anybody’s nipples, just as I didn’t want to see Janet Jackson’s.
If you have mastered the art of decently breastfeeding, then more power to you. I think mothers are great, and I think nursing your children is great. But when I get married and have children, I don’t want anybody else seeing my wife’s fully exposed breast. I’ll support her breastfeeding, even in public, but in a decent manner so as to not flash anybody.
And just for you, next time I see a mother nursing, I’ll give her a thumbs up. :) I may get a strange reaction, but maybe it will have the Patch Adams effect..
Connor
Let me promise you it is highly unlikely you will ever see an exposed nipple or your wife will expose her nipple.
Thank you! I hope you do :) You probably won’t get a strange reaction, I love getting smiles when people see me breastfeeding. It gives me warm fuzzies that there are many who support breastfeeding. It’s a great feeling.
Bill Said:
“there is nothing … sexual about a woman breast feeding.”
Bill,
This all depends on the “viewer”. For some it may not be, for some it can be as sexual as any form of pornography out there.
Just because something doesn’t excite you doesn’t mean everyone else feels the same way.
JM
I will repeat myself. There is nothing sexual about a woman who is breast feeding her baby. It is a wonderful moment between a mother and her child.
There is nothing sexual about seeing a nipple or a breast. Turn your TV onto the Nature Channel and you will see Breast and Nipples and it is not sexual.
If a woman feeding her child turns you on, then you need to see a doctor.
It seems really weird that I have found something I agree with Mary on.
“It seems really weird that I have found something I agree with Mary on.”
I know, it is kind of weird isn’t it? lol
This is a subject I am very passionate about. Society has tried for so long to turn breastfeeding into something shameful and I finally figured out the reason why. It is because the people who are so freaked out about public breastfeeding are so conditioned to view women as sexual objects, the idea that she is maternal is frightening to them. Anything to de-maternalise women is the goal.
Bill,
That’s a very self centered outlook.
Mary,
Are you saying that you agree with Bill that there is nothing sexual about seeing a breast or nipple?
The only thing shameful about breastfeeding or any other form of public nudity is that for some reason when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, they became aware of their nakedness and felt a conscious need to cover themselves. It would appear that their offspring share this sense of shame to one degree or another.
Previous to that time, they were as innocent as any other animal and had no concept of shame of being naked. But for some reason, God has deemed nakedness to be taboo.
Breastfeeding may be perfectly natural, just like a calf drinking milk from the mother cow in an open field. Urinating in public is also perfectly natural. Perhaps I should be free to “relieve myself” on any tree down at Princess Island Park during my lunch hour?
I also seem to remember a scripture or two about the “Natural Man”. Perhaps all “Natural” bodily functions just aren’t meant to be public?
For me, the issue is the same as smoking in public. Some argue that the smoker should have the right to smoke or not smoke in public. But smoking in public can affect the non-smoker, and the non-smoker has no choice in the matter.
Breastfeeding in public makes some people uncomfortable because they feel it is indecent. If this is happening in public, someone passing by doesn’t have much of a choice whether they are confronted by it or not. Sure you can say “look away”, but that’s like telling the non-smoker to just hold their breath when a bunch of smokers are puffing away at the entrance to some mall or hospital or wherever.
If you feel the need to breastfeed in public when there are more discreet options available, then you are thinking only of yourself.
If you choose to keep a natural bodily function more private out of a sense of moral decency, then I congratulate you.
Mary, perhaps some of your comments in #9 are accurate some of the time, but I can assure you that they are not absolute. For me, looking at a bare breast, breastfeeding or not, does nothing to change how I view a woman’s sexuality for me. For me, my brain just says “Hey, bare breast!!! Look at that!!!”. I’ve had that same response for most of my life, and it hasn’t stopped.
I love seeing women in their maternal role. I don’t think I’m alone. I definitly felt a new sense of attraction to my wife when she was pregnant and when we had small babies and all her “parts” were being used for their god intended purpose. My reaction to a naked woman does not change when she is “more maternal”.
Mary, with all of your passion on the subject, I’d be interested to know if you breastfeed during the middle of sacrament meeting or if you go into the mothers lounge or bathroom or somewhere more discreet.
And finally Mary, please forgive me if I’ve completely missed the point. I’m not arguing if breastfeeding is right or wrong. I’m all for it, just in private.
JM
“Are you saying that you agree with Bill that there is nothing sexual about seeing a breast or nipple?”
Well, let’s see. Yes, society has deemed that seeing a breast or a nipple is sexual, but it isn’t for everyone, and since men go shirtless often at this time of the year, is it sexual seeing a man’s breast or nipple? And as long as part of the breast is covered, or the nipple is covered it’s ok? So a baby nursing is wrong, but a teenager wearing a tiny triangle bikini top is ok?
“Mary, perhaps some of your comments in #9 are accurate some of the time, but I can assure you that they are not absolute. For me, looking at a bare breast, breastfeeding or not, does nothing to change how I view a woman’s sexuality for me. For me, my brain just says “Hey, bare breast!!! Look at that!!!â€. I’ve had that same response for most of my life, and it hasn’t stopped.”
JM that’s fine.
“I love seeing women in their maternal role. I don’t think I’m alone. I definitly felt a new sense of attraction to my wife when she was pregnant and when we had small babies and all her “parts†were being used for their god intended purpose. My reaction to a naked woman does not change when she is “more maternalâ€.”
My husband is the same. But I am willing to bet there are many who don’t feel this way. Otherwise there wouldn’t be such a push for women to be in sexual roles in life. Look at the media.
“Mary, with all of your passion on the subject, I’d be interested to know if you breastfeed during the middle of sacrament meeting or if you go into the mothers lounge or bathroom or somewhere more discreet.”
Generally I go to the Mother’s lounge, but not because it is more discreet, it’s because it is quieter and more comfortable (generally). However, I have breastfed in sacrament, I have breastfed during stake conference, I have breastfed in the foyer, I have breastfed in RS, Primary, etc etc. I have breastfed doing my shopping, walking down the aisle. If my baby needs to nurse, I nurse.
If you think breastfeeding should be “private” then go ahead, feel that way, all I am asking that the same standards apply to everyone. If babies should be ashamed of how they eat (and they certainly are not) then babies who are bottlefed should be taken somewhere else to eat and adults and older children and teenagers should eat in private places. It’s all a matter of societal perception. My baby has a right to have her needs met when they are needed to be met. Not I, nor any other mother should be made to feel that it is wrong to nurse our babies in any place.
Oh and besides that, it is not illegal to breastfeed my baby in public and it is not legal for anyone to ask a nursing mother to remove herself in any public place. If you don’t like to see a mother nursing her baby in public, than don’t look.
I was very fortunate when I was young to be “exposed” to nursing mothers. My mother didn’t see the need to run off to another room, nor did other mothers in our ward feel the need. So I saw my baby brothers and sisters (well ok, sister, there is only 16 months between myself and my next sister) nursing and it didn’t phase me. I have never had a problem seeing a mother nursing her child.
“I’m all for it, just in private.”
Ok, then make sure you eat in private too. Always. It’s the double standard that gets me. There is not a thing wrong with breastfeeding a baby wherever s/he needs to be nursed, it’s our society that has created such a stigma about it, and the babies and the mothers suffer because of it. Private or public, babies need to eat. When people start to realise that breastfeeding is not a sexual act and breasts, in that regard, are not sexual, then maybe enlightenment will come.
Mary,
I notice that you failed to address JM’s citation of the story regarding Adam and Eve being naked. Obviously, it is proper and correct to cover ourselves and not expose our “private parts” to others.
Your campaign for equality disturbs me. Men and women are not equals. They never were intended to be. This fact is established even in the Proclamation on the Family, where the gender roles are carefully delineated. To push for gender equality on all issues is absurd and unsubstantiated.
JM makes a good point that it is important, if not charitable, to be mindful of others. Just because you think that I shouldn’t see a woman’s breast and think sexual thoughts does not mean that I don’t. That’s fine if you have some perception of how things “should be”, but that’s not how things are. The deacon next to you in sacrament meeting is going to giggle when he sees your boob, ipso facto.
go to the bathroom to nurse your baby? ACCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.. who wants to eat their dinner in a bathroom????
Just what I always wanted to do with my children when they were being nursed.. sit on some dirty toilet for 30 minutes.. holding up other people needing to use the cubicle.. It’s bad enough most public bathrooms don’t have change tables and you have to put your baby on the floor to change their diapers now you have to sit on the toilet to feed them….
But what annoys me even more are fathers who follow their wives into the nursing lounge in church and sit in the recliners while other mothers sit on a hard chair or have to wait their turn. Where is the so called privacy that you asked us to use when we nurse babies when fathers do that?
Connor
I must have missed the Adam and Eve reference. Hmm
I see there are a few other issues I didn’t address either. Such as relieving oneself in public. I don’t believe that breastfeeding should be equated with human waste as this is not the same thing. As well, smoking in public is hazardous to other’s health. Breastfeeding does not physically harm others. This public breastfeeding taboo is a modern, western notion, not practices in other cultures.
“Your campaign for equality disturbs me. Men and women are not equals. They never were intended to be. This fact is established even in the Proclamation on the Family, where the gender roles are carefully delineated. To push for gender equality on all issues is absurd and unsubstantiated.”
My “campaign for equality” is basically to point out the ridiculousness of treating breastfeeding babies as pariahs. And I am not sure what this has to do with breastfeeding.
Ok back to Adam and Eve. It seems that you (and JM) are of the belief that I believe we should run rampant naked. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am a strict believer in modesty. Some people think we take the modesty thing too far (no sleeveless dresses or tops for our children no matter what their age) As I stated before, I don’t think there is anything wrong with public nursing, I don’t believe nursing mothers should be relegated to the bathroom, nor are they allowed to be asked to stop nursing. Having seen many babies nursing, it is very very rare to see any skin, never mind a nipple. However, if you DO happen to see a bit of skin and are aware a baby is nursing, what’s the point of making a huge issue about it?
Oh and JM, “thinking only of myself and not others”, not true. When I nurse my babies I think of my babies. I don’t expose myself, however it has never offended me to see someone nursing, even if she exposes a bit of skin. To hear people refer to a nursing baby as “disgusting” because a little breast MIGHT be exposed, is something I find distastfeul and rather frightening. Or I shoudl say, to hear breastfeeding referred to as disgusting bothers me. Very much.
My (as you term it, Connor) equality statements are to point out the discrepencies. Society has decided a woman’s breast is sexual. They were/are created by God to nourish a baby, so who’s right? Wester society or Heavenly Father?
As far as being charitable, my baby understands only one thing, is she loved? I think of my baby. I would like to see people be more considerate of babies’ needs instead of jumping the gun and condemning a mother for nursing her baby and perhaps see what is important here. And again, don’t look if you are afraid you are going to see a bit of skin.
A question. have either of you EVER seen a woman’s breast bare or a nipple when she is nursing in public? And do either of you think it is more detrimental that you see it, or that the baby gets fed? And as far as finding somewhere “discreet”, I can just tell you that there are few places accomodating to nursing mothers. If a mother is nursing in public, odds are there isn’t anywhere else she can be, for many reasons. There may not be a place for her to sit (the bathroom does not count), the mother’s lounge may be very stinky, full or non-existent, she may have other children she cannot leave, she may have a cart full of groceries she can’t just leave standing, she may be wedged in and not able to leave (this has happened to me), or there may be other reasons. How about, instead of being accusatory and judgemental, you show some compassion for her and her baby?
My “campaign for equality†is basically to point out the ridiculousness of treating breastfeeding babies as pariahs. And I am not sure what this has to do with breastfeeding.
It’s not how we’re treating the babies who are breastfeeding, the issue here is the exposed breast in doing so. Your “campaign for equality” made reference to the asexual nature of a man’s nipple, as opposed to the sexualized perception of the female’s. Indeed, the very fact that the beast serves the purpose it does is why it is sexualized. The portions of our bodies used to propagate the human race are private.
However, if you DO happen to see a bit of skin and are aware a baby is nursing, what’s the point or making a huge issue about it.
A nipple is a nipple. I don’t care if it has a tassle or a baby latched on to it. I think the same thoughts either way. Simply because it is being used in that exact moment to feed a child (a worthy, honorable cause) does not desexualize the object.
My (as you term it) equality statements are to point out the discrepencies. Society has decided a woman’s breast is sexual.
Regardless of society’s perceptions, breasts are sexual objects for the reasons I stated above.
A blogger at TFC TFC wrote about this:
Some people would say “Why do you care? It’s their own problem if they feel uncomfortable.” I agree to a point, but I also believe showing concern for the feelings of those around you is something that comes with being a member of a community, or city, or nation. This doesn’t mean I have to accept their “uncomfortableness” completely. I do want to help more people feel comfortable with the idea of a woman breastfeeding in public, but I don’t think it is my place to force someone to feel comfortable seeing a woman’s breast in public, as a food source or otherwise.
Your opinions are your own, and simply because you think that breasts only serve to feed children does not entitle you and other women to set aside my feelings on the matter. Consideration is a charitable cause.
A question. have either of you EVER seen a woman’s breast bare or a nipple when she is nursing in public?
As I noted in comment #1, I have seen plenty of women’s bare breasts (and nipples) while breastfeeding.
How about, instead of being accusatory and judgemental, you show some compassion for her and her baby?
As I have previously noted, I think breastfeeding is great. I am all for it. Additionally, I have not intended my comments to be accusatory in nature; I simply desire to point out that there are others (whether they’ve been indoctrinated by society or not) that uncomfortable seeing a bare breast. For me, it’s not so much that the woman is breastfeeding, it’s more the potentially exposed breast that upsets me. As I have stated before, if you have mastered the art of breastfeeding in public without exposing an unnecessary skin (or nipple), then that’s great. But I’m sure that there are many mothers out there who aren’t as experienced, and accidents do happen.
It’s not the end of the world to see an exposed breast. I would just prefer not to. Nor would I want others seeing my wife’s exposed breast. I think there should be, and hopefully is, a happy medium where “lactivists” and “prudes” can meet half-way.
“The portions of our bodies used to propagate the human race are private.”
Breasts are to feed babies. And as I constantly say, women aren’t trying to show off their breasts, they are trying to feed their babies.
“A nipple is a nipple.”
And men have nipples. So do children.
“Additionally, I have not intended my comments to be accusatory in nature;”
But they are.
And you say when you glance at a woman and see exposed breast…well why are you looking at her breasts? When I look at people I don’t generally automatically go to their chest. It’s usually the face I look at.
“It’s not the end of the world to see an exposed breast. I would just prefer not to.”
Then don’t look.
“I think there should be, and hopefully is, a happy medium where “lactivists†and “prudes†can meet half-way.”
That would be nice. But often, the prudes are so judgemental when there is absolutely no need to be, that it is very upsetting. On a bus, I was nursing my baby, who was completely covered. There wasn’t a slip of skin showing (as most of the passengers would attest to) and a teenage girl took offense to it. She proceeded to look horrified, whisper loudly to her friend until I asked her to stop. It wasn’t the SKIN that bothered her (as there was none, I checked) it was the fact I WAS nursing.
Again, society. Very sad.
Mary Said:
“If you think breastfeeding should be “private†then go ahead, feel that way, all I am asking that the same standards apply to everyone.”
There is no double standard. The standard in question is not about how babies eat. It’s about seeing a naked breast. If breastfeeding can be done without the naked breast, then go for it.
I also find it strange that you justify seeing the naked woman’s breast in public during breastfeeding by aligning it with the immodesty we see in public. Basically, by siding with immodesty, you are not only condoning it, but also agreeing that naked womens breasts during breastfeeding are immodest.
Interesting…
Agreed w/ JM. It seems as if this is boiling down to a childish version of “Well if Tommy can do it, so can I!!!”. I would try to use that argument with my parents for a variety of reasons: dating before 16, staying out past curfew, playing on Sunday, etc.
It never worked. You can’t justify your own actions based on the actions of others. Saying that women everywhere should be able to breastfeed simply because people wear bikinis, eat at restaurants, and smoke outside is a fruitless comparative attempt to justify your own actions.
I’m not saying breastfeeding is bad. Like JM, I fully agree that you are welcomed to breastfeed in public as long as nobody sees your boob.
Also, you commented previously that JM and I seemed to think that you thought we should be able to run around naked all day. Such assumptive logic is in error, just as in your assumption that I am always looking at the chests of women I walk by.
Such is not the case. But when a woman’s breast is exposed, and my eyes are wandering as I am walking or looking around, it’s fairly impossible to not see it at all. This is simple to illustrate. How often do we look at somebody picking at their nose, singing in their car, or picking a wedgie? Just because you don’t want to see something doesn’t mean you’re bestowed the supernatural ability to not look at it. Sure, you can look away immediately after witnessing it, but it’s “too little too late”. You’ve already seen the picked wedgie, picked nose, car singer, or in this case, bare breast.
Sure, the girl in the bus was at fault for looking at you in horror as you breastfed with no exposed skin. But complaining about how society is does not do much for anybody. Similar things happen for disabled kids, people with funny haircuts, men with lots of ear hair, and overweight people. Having a vendetta against society because of experiences such as these would cause everybody to be angry at society, for all of us have been subject to scorn and ridicule at some time.
“Basically, by siding with immodesty, you are not only condoning it, but also agreeing that naked womens breasts during breastfeeding are immodest.”
I don’t side with immodesty, I am questioning YOUR double standard. You say a slight view of a breast is abhorrent, but I don’t hear the same concerns raised about low rise jeans or tank tops.
For the record, I strictly adhere to modesty. My children are taught to dress modestly all the time, from birth on. So am I. This means they are to wear clothing that would cover garments if they were to wear them. No short shorts, no tank tops, no belly shirts, no mini skirts. Yes, even for my 7 year old.
I am not using an “if she can do it, I can do it”. I am saying, have some compassion. Most women aren’t out to show off their breasts. They are trying to feed their babies. Instead of jumping up to accuse and attack them, have some compassion for them.
I also don’t have a vendetta against anyone. I believe in honouring nursing mums and supporting them. I think of the nursing babe, and am happy they can nurse.
Oh, and Connor, I don’t refer to my breasts, or any other women’s breasts as “boobs”. So please don’t refer to MINE as “boobs”. A boob is someone who does something stupid. A breast is something that nurtures someone.
I suppose that (in an effort to bring some closure to this back-and-forth argument) a good way to summarize my point is with a quote from Elder Oaks’ talk on pornography last year:
And young women, please understand that if you dress immodestly, you are magnifying this problem by becoming pornography to some of the men who see you.
You speak of JM’s double standard, but I also see one in your argument. You just stated how much you emphasize modesty in your children – an admirable quality. Modesty serves to cover up portions of the body that are private and should not be exposed, for if they are exposed, they become pornography for men who might see.
I understand your problem with society’s outlook on breastfeeding. But that is not the issue. Again, the issue is the exposed breast. Any woman who might expose her breast during brestfeeding, whether accidentally or intentionally, is essentially becoming pornography to men. I’m sorry you disagree, and think that men shouldn’t have sexual thoughts when seeing an exposed breast during breastfeeding, but for whatever reason, that’s the way it is.
“Breasts are to feed babies. And as I constantly say, women aren’t trying to show off their breasts, they are trying to feed their babies.”
This statement is false on two accounts.
1) Breasts are not only to feed babies. They are also like the peacock’s feathers. They are also used to attract the opposite sex (for humans, maybe other species, I don’t know). They biologically and culturally have this effect.
2) I have seen a few, not many, new young mothers do some “Showing Off” in public while breastfeeding.
“And you say when you glance at a woman and see exposed breast…well why are you looking at her breasts? When I look at people I don’t generally automatically go to their chest. It’s usually the face I look at. ”
That’s because you are a woman. Many men tend to look a little furthur down at a first glance. I’m not sure why this is. Perhaps it’s social conditioning, perhaps biological, but it happens more times than not.
In fact, I have seen co-workers of mine walking around downtown Calgary actually scouting out breastfeeding women, trying to catch a glimpse. These are grown men, between the ages of 20 and 45.
“Then don’t look.”
This is a very naive statement. For many men, it’s just not that simple. That’s like saying to the gambling addict “Just don’t gamble” or to the alcoholic, “Just don’t drink”. Men are going to look. Sometimes I think women underestimate the power of their feminine form.
I think on the issue of breastfeeding in public, of course women should be allowed to do it.
On the issue of dressing immodestly or exposing “sexual” body parts, this needs to stop, regardless if it’s on the red mile, during mardi gras, or in a mall while a mother breastfeeds.
“I also find it strange that you justify seeing the naked woman’s breast in public during breastfeeding by aligning it with the immodesty we see in public.”
Based on what I read in Mary’s comments, it seemed to me she was saying just the opposite. In other words, if breastfeeding women are expected to cover up every square inch of skin, then so should every other person who shoes off skin (whether it be plunging necklines, sleeveless shirts, short skirts, midriff-baring tees, low-rise jeans, and so on). If anything, Mary comments seemed unequivocally opposed to immodesty. I find it odd someone would interpret otherwise.
I find it odd that she would need to bring it into the conversation at all. After a quick re-read of the thread, I don’t see anybody saying that it was ok for anybody to show exposed skin via immodest dress.
Sounds like a serving of frustration with a side of strawman.
“1) Breasts are not only to feed babies. They are also like the peacock’s feathers. They are also used to attract the opposite sex (for humans, maybe other species, I don’t know). They biologically and culturally have this effect.”
Heavenly Father didn’t create this, society has created it. In some cultures, not ours obviously, breasts are not seen as sexual objects. By using this argument we can say that any body part is a sexual object. Skin being the largest one of all. No matter where it is.
“That’s because you are a woman. Many men tend to look a little furthur down at a first glance. I’m not sure why this is. Perhaps it’s social conditioning, perhaps biological, but it happens more times than not.”
Do men discuss this?
“I’m sorry you disagree, and think that men shouldn’t have sexual thoughts when seeing an exposed breast during breastfeeding, but for whatever reason, that’s the way it is.”
Whose fault is this, Connor? Not the woman’s. There are men who have sexual thoughts when they see children. Whether dressed or not, does this mean I lock up my children? No, I wish I could lock up the men who do this. There are men who have sexual thoughts just SEEING a woman, whether she is provocatively dressed or not.
Anyway, I’m done. My points are clear, I don’t think breastfeeding mothers should be made to pay the price for the depravity of western society. Unfortunately they continue to do so.
“I find it odd that she would need to bring it into the conversation at all. After a quick re-read of the thread, I don’t see anybody saying that it was ok for anybody to show exposed skin via immodest dress.”
I feel like a broken record. It’s the double standard I was bringing up. Why women who breastfeed in public are vilified, but I don’t see rants (here or elsewhere) about women or men wearing next to nothing. The same people who see a nursing mum and take offense seem to be the ones who say nothing when a girl walks by showing more skin than clothing.
Heavenly Father didn’t create this, society has created it. In some cultures, not ours obviously, breasts are not seen as sexual objects. By using this argument we can say that any body part is a sexual object.
How can you say with such authority that God did not intend breasts to also be sexual objects? Are you advocating that it be socially acceptable for women to roam topless wherever they go, just as men can? And who is to say that just because African tribes adopt this mentality, that it is the correct one? Perhaps their culture is in error, and ours is not. Not being able to speak for God, how can you claim to know how He intended breasts to be used? Sorry, but I agree w/ JM. Breasts do not merely serve for feeding infants.
Whose fault is this, Connor? Not the woman’s.
Then why did Elder Oaks tell women to dress modestly to not become pornography for men? Why didn’t he instead tell men to fix their heads and stop thinking that way?
“Why didn’t he instead tell men to fix their heads and stop thinking that way?”
Good question. Why take the onus from men to be responsible for their thoughts? Why should it be the woman’s fault if a man can’t control his thoughts?
“I don’t see anybody saying that it was ok for anybody to show exposed skin via immodest dress. Sounds like a serving of frustration with a side of strawman.”
You mean just like the idea of women exposing themselves while nursing. No one said it was okay that women expose themselves while nursing, yet there seem to be assumptions made that by default women expose themselves when breastfeeding; that it doesn’t go without saying that most (if not all) women breastfeed discreetly in public.
Well, this has been enlightening.
At least I have a better appreciation for another view on the subject.
I guess I’ll agree to disagree. :-)
Sounds to me as if some of you who have written on this thread need to reexam your reasons for being opposed to a woman breast feeding. What I read was that your eyes says breast and your mind says sex and then you feel guilty for having sexual thoughts and you want to blame the woman for your sexual thoughts.
You need to learn to control your thoughts. You sound like the men from the Arab woman who punish women by making them wear stupid clothes that cover them from head to toe so the men do not have to learn how to control their thoughts.
Breast feeding a baby is not sexual and any attempt you make to deem it sexual shows that you have not learn how to control your thoughts. Learn to be a man. When I was a child I thought as a child but when I became a man I put away childish thoughts.
Breast feeding a baby is not sexual and any attempt you make to deem it sexual shows that you have not learn how to control your thoughts. Learn to be a man.
As JM noted earlier, one could also argue, using similar logic, for the ability to urinate on command in public. This is not a sexual act either, yet it is not condoned.
Taking the example to the extreme in order to be able to compare it to Arab women covering their entire body is unfounded.
Using the example of urinating in public is stupid. You need to become a man and start protecting women instead of seeing them as a sex toy. You are wrong. Go pray about it. The Church allows women to breast feed because it is the right thing to do.
That doesn’t happen in our building, Mum. The only access to the mother’s lounge is through the female washroom.
If there’s some guy who gets turned on by a woman breastfeeding, it’s the guy who has the problem. That’s how babies eat.
There’s just something wrong about a society that sexualizes everything, or seemingly so.
My wife sounds a lot like Mary. After we had our first child and we were out of our home, she’d usually go to someplace like a restroom in order to nurse our baby. But she soon began to think that doing so was ridiculous — why go to the inconvenience to do something so natural and important? So with our later children, she would breastfeed the babies as needed. She was always discreet, but she didn’t accept any flak (nor did she get much) for using her body for what God intended it.
A year ago we were in Latin America, and as we were waiting outside the chapel for sacrament, in walks a woman nursing her child while walking in the door. Of course, nobody (except for us gringos) even noticed. And why should they? It just isn’t that big of a deal.
Huh, what???
You’re not the only one, Jordan.
Sean,
It’s a habit huh?
Like smoking or biting one’s nails?
You, my friend, are a loon.
poor spelling: check!
supports the Republicans: check!
ultra conservative: check!
People like you really do scare me, Sean.
What could possibly be more natural than a woman breastfeeding her child?
If you think it’s an indecent act, then it’s your right as an American to think that way. Fortunately this right also extends to having the right to be wrong; and I think you are.
Shall we have the ladies wear burhkas? Would that be modest enough for you?
Snap out of it. If you don’t like seeing mothers breastfeed in public, stop watching them. With the exception of the odd new-age hippy wannabe, most women a pretty discreet about the whole thing.
To say i scare you Rick is pretty backwards, because your the one who scares me for condoning sexual indecent exposure such as public breastfeeding to be a social norm. You also said this Rick “Snap out of it. If you don’t like seeing mothers breastfeed in public, stop watching them.”, how can i stop watching someone when you have this push-it-in-your-face-boobs attitude sort of thing to be arrogant about it??, if women dont like people staring at them for showing some bad manners to be indecently exposed, then maybe they should take responsibilitys enough to take it to a private location. That would be like if a man came into a restaurant and urinated in a jar to show his penis in public so i make a complain to the manager, would you say the same thing about a man urinating in public??. I bet you would Rick, you would say “oh if you dont like seeing people urinating in public, than dont stare”
“condoning sexual indecent exposure such as public breastfeeding”
Breastfeeding is sexual? Well, no wonder you feel the way you do.
Breastfeeding is not sexual. That is something in your perverted imagination and that of an uneduacted society. Breastfeeding is not disposing of bodily waste matter nor showing male/female intimacy. It is strictly nourishing and comforting a baby. Your ideas, Sean, are not only archaic, but they are uninformed. Since most women do not expose themselves, when nursing their babies, I wonder where your strange ideas come from.
Your lack of proper grammar and spelling indicates that you are very young, and likely very inexperienced. I see more flesh and exposure on a non breastfeeding woman (usually a teenage girl) than I do on a breastfeeding mother. If you actually notice a baby breastfeeding, you would have to be staring avidly and sitting or standing very close. The majority of mothers are too adept at nursing in public to show even a flash of skin. Trust me on that one.
Your opinion about women is very alarming. Your lack of respect for women is quite apparent. If you had any respect for them you would not speak of women in such a degrading way.
Oh, and another thing. Why do you like seeing women in high heels? Do you know the reason they were invented? To raise a woman’s derriere to show it in a more “attractive” way for men. Quite chauvinistic. It seems to me you see women as sexual objects rather than as individuals in our own right. There are men (and boys) who cannot bear to view women in the role of a mother as this is a frightening thing to contemplate. It seems to me you are one of these individuals.
Way to go Mary!!!!!!!!!
Are you a memeber of the Quiver full of Arrows group?
Actually about 3-4 weeks ago, a woman in my home ward had a baby. She stood up one day during Sacrament and wrapped this rather odd piece of clothing around her and her baby – I presume a new invention to make breastfeeding more comfortable and less exposed.
Undoubtedly many of the YM realised and began to stare and giggle during the meeting. Personally I had nothing against this, yes it was obvious what was happening, but it wasn’t exposed as it has been stated the Hondurans were. Breastfeeding is yes natural, and to Sean – for the baby this is necessary – to have sex in public it is not!
I’m a Brit rather than an American, and I have to admit, we have pretty much the same culture to see a boob and go wow look at that, you don’t see that everyday! But there comes a point when you have to grow up and just accept that breastfeeding is a part of life! So why should we ban it! This world is becoming so “correct” it’s ridiculous to be quite honest. I’d love to hear some feedback on my thoughts.