I have never paid tithing.
I understand that it’s a pretty personal topic, but I’ve got a couple of tithing scenarios which I do not fully understand.
Tithing is paid on one’s increase. No refunds are given for one’s decrease (omitting for the time being church assistance programs etc.)
So if I bought my house for $200,000 and I sell it for $300,000, do I owe the church $10,000?
Another situation would involve stock market or similar profit vehicles.
If I buy a stock at $1/share and I sell a stock at $2/share, do I owe the church $.10 for every share I sell? Would I just wait and tally all of my stock profits until the end of the year and pay on the increase?
So if I bought my house for $200,000 and I sell it for $300,000, do I owe the church $10,000?
Yup.
If I buy a stock at $1/share and I sell a stock at $2/share, do I owe the church $.01 for every share I sell? Would I just wait and tally all of my stock profits until the end of the year and pay on the increase?
No, you “owe the church” 10 cents per share, not 1 (though that was probably just a typo). You would pay on your increase, or whenever you sell your stock.
“You would pay on your increase, or whenever you sell your stock.”
…so it’s really not in the LDS member’s best interests to be a day trader huh? (thanks for catching the typo on the post – I’ve corrected it)
Well, if I were a day trader, I would only pay tithing when I “cashed out” and pocketed my earnings – not on a daily basis as things fluctuate constantly. Then again, being a day trader would require having money to begin with, which I don’t, so I shouldn’t worry about it too much. :-P
Thank G-d the church doesn’t issue a tithing code like rick is inquiring about. What a can of worms.
rick,
These things are left to the individual. On the house gain, some would deduct inflationary gains, others would not. Some might defer all tithing on capital appreciation to after death via a will. On the stocks, most would deduct losses and settle up with the church on an annual basis, just like they do with the tax man.
I don’t tithe on retirement savings because it would be an accounting nightmare in my retirement; it’s easier just to plan on paying tithing on any later draws upon that savings. In short, it’s to each his own.
you’ve never paid tithing? wow.
Johnna
He’s not a member of the Church.
A few years back when we were renters we found a big IRS tax benefit by paying our tithing a year in advance. The oversize chartiable deduction would swing us into a lower tax bracket every other year.
So if you pay tithing a year in advance could I also pay tithing a year in arrears?
Can I pay 2006 tithing at the end of 2007?
If I put 2006 tithing into a savings account, is the tithing on the interest due in 2006 or 2007 or 2008?
If I buy the new tithing free bonds, does the money spent on the bonds count towards tithing?
If I earn $50,000 this year, instead of paying $5,000 in tithing, I buy $5,000 of tithing free bonds this year. Since the interest is tithing free, then I would not pay tithing on the $500 of interest the bonds earn. Is this correct snce the bonds are tithing free or do you pay tithing on the interest?
You deduct the cost of the bond from this years tithing.
Have any of you bought them yet?
Seems to be the thing the BYU students are selling this year instead of the books.
“by paying our tithing a year in advance”
How does this work?
How can you know beforehand what your ‘advance’ will be in the following year?
This makes very little sense to me.
It sure would be nice to have an extra years worth of tithing and need a tax deduction.
The scriptures say it is an increase. So in OT times, the family might have 10 cows and give one for tithing. The next year they would have 20 cows. Did they give 2 cows or just 1 cow? I have heard 1 cow because they had paid tithing on the first ten last year. Their increase was only 10 cows.
How would this policy translate into today? You made $50,000 last year and $60,000 this year. Do you pay $6,000 or $1,000? $10,000 increase not $60,000 or is it $60,000 increase? hum?
Should a woman pay tithing on child support payments from her hex-husband?
It’s a 60,000$ increase, Bill. You’re not comparing your two analogies correctly.
In the first you talk about an increase in cows, but also the amount of cows you already had.
In the second, you discuss a salary increase, but say nothing of savings you already have.
If you made 50,000$ last year and never spent any of it, You would end up with 100,000$ (minus last year’s tithing) with this year’s increase. You do not pay 10,000$ in tithing because you did not increase by 100,000$. You pay 6,000$ because you increases 60,000$.
Just like the cows, you pay only on the increase, not the total you currently own (previous and the new increase).
For better or for worse, I’ve adopted the U.S. Internal Revenue Code as my personal tithing code. If it is an item of “gross income,” I pay tithing on it. (I’m not saying that this is a good idea, and it obviously varies from country to country).
The troubling thing is that this income-based model (though capital gains are included in income under the I.R.C.) seems unrelated to the concept of “increase” that’s usually used in connection with paying tithing.
I remember that the old missionary discussions taught that tithing is paid on one-tenth of income.
I watched “New York Doll” last night–for some reason all this is reminding me of the tithing discussion between Killer Kane and David Johanson.
“hex-husband” is a nice typo. Is child support taxable income? I notice there’s always a space for it on credit card applications. There’s a scary thought.
Is child support taxable?
If you say yes, then what if the ex-husband paif tithing on the money first?
How would the ex-wife know if tithing was paid?
Should a family pay tithing on the amount they spend on the children in additon to the regular amount they pay. This is the same concept paying tithing on child support would be.
Child support is income. It should be tithed by the recipient. It’s just the same if you receive a gift of money. That money should be tithed, even if the giver already tithed that money.
Stock money isn’t in your possesion until the money is pulled out, so you are only responsible to tithe for the money gained after the money is pulled from the market.
Remember, Genesis 28:22
“and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.”
Tithing is giving a tenth of ALL you have unto the Lord. If you are unsure if something should be tithed then pay tithe on it. If you are in error then at least your mistake is righteous in the eyes of the Lord.
Nick – Child support (paid by the father) is his portion of the child’s support. Why should it be paid twice? Let’s assume the father has already paid his tithin
Bill,
He paid it on what he recieved, however, the child support is extra income. I would consider it tithable as this is income.
The Father isn’t in that household.
So question, on the same principle. If I work for someone who is a member of the Church, and they pay me out of their income, which they have already paid tithing on, does this mean I don’t have to pay tithing? No. It is my income I am paying tithing on. The same would be for child support payments. Whether the parent who is paying it (whether this be the mother or the father) pays tithing on it, this does not mean the recieving parent is not to pay tithing on it.
The really great thing about tithing is (drum roll) nobody gets to decide for you what income you need to tithe on. Are gifts income? Your call. Child support? Also your call. Gross or net? Urgh, urgh, urgh – your call.
As far as child support goes, it is important to follow the the divorce decree. I heard a story (possibly apocryphal, of course) about a woman whose divorce decree specifically prohibited paying tithing on child support she received, and her bishop pulled her TR because he said she should pay it anyway. The story goes that the Stake President stepped in and advised said bishop about what it means to “obey the law,” and the woman got her TR back.
There are many Bishops who are over zealous. I went through a divorce years ago and the judge ruled that any money I gave to the Church, I had to pay the wife an equal amount. Any amount I gave her would be added into the monthly support she would receive. Example – $500 support to her and $500 to Church then add the extra $500 and it became $500 tithing and $1,000 support payments for a total of $1,500 a month. Then you get to add child support and all of this is after taxes are taken out. The SP understand the problem but quite frankly the Bishop needed to be released.
Child Support is based on the life style the child would have had if the parents had stayed together. Child Support is also the child or childrens money for their support. It is not the mother’s money. The mother uses it to pay the child’s expenses but it is not her money.
Bishops are not suppose to advise parents to pay tithing on Child Support Payments. It is not an increase. The other problem is that in most cases the women and the children take a huge hit on life style when families break up. Men tend to be better off until they remarry and then it gets bad for them also.
Yes, I agree that child support is not the mother’s money. It is money intended for the children and the father has the right to be disturbed if the money he sends to support his children is also being used to support the church (or anything else besides his children). If he wants to support the church he can pay tithing pre-child support payments and if he doesn’t want to support the church then he shouldn’t have to in any form. On the other hand, alimony is the wife’s money and she can pay tithing on it if she wants. But again, if the ex-husband already paid tithing on that money it becomes tricky, since if they were still together they would never consider tithing it twice for the man and the wife. Why should it matter if they live in different households if the wife is still technically a dependant on the man?
Rick, I would pay the $10,000. We recently sold some property and paid a hefty amount of tithing. This is a law that I totally obey to the letter. It’s fairly easy for me and my husband has come over to my side because he’s seen that it’s bread upon the waters and we are always okay.
I suppose that’s not a reason to do it, but it’s one aspect of perfect tithe paying.
One thing we do is we pay tithing on our gross income, LESS social security taxes and retirement deduction. I figure we’ll pay tithing on that money when and if we see it.
When my husband’s mother died and he got an inheritance, we tithed it. When my son died and we received insurance money, we tithed it.
We tithe the big amounts and the small amounts. We don’t tithe the $20 we get in the mail from Grandma, but that’s mostly because I forget.
We’ve paid enough tithing to have paid off our house and buy a house in the Bahamas. Not that I notice :).
Do you include the amount you pay in tithing before or after health insurance?
Have you bought those new tithing free bonds the college students are selling?
I recieved part my inheritance, but then paid off a large Equity Loan with nearly half of it.
I assume you pay on the full inheritance, but my wife says, pay on what you did not pay on the Equity Loan.
Her reasoning is, if I had borrowed the money from my father in stead of the Bank, and then he died, my inheritance would of been what was left after paying off the loan.
Sounds sound but???? In a business one would work it like that, in a loan and profit situation, you tith on your profits.
I knew a David Johnson that lived in Arizona. Would that be you?
George, have never lived in Arizona. David Johnson is a fairly common name.
I assumed you would not be the one I knew.
Have you decided anything on your tithing question?
I am neutral on your question.
David, I realize that this question, like many tithing question, is leaves room for doubt about exactly the right way to tithe. I think that’s why the Brethren have consistently avoided giving any further definition than 10% of income, leaving it up to the tithe payer to decide, in good faith and (I hope) with the guidance of the Holy Ghost, what is “income.”
The Brethren have not only avoided getting into the nitty-gritty of that question themselves; they have also told us not to get into it with each other:
“The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED IN MAKING ANY OTHER STATEMENT THAN THIS.†(First Presidency letter, 19 March 1970, emphasis added.)
Itbugaf,
I understand what you are saying. To me more explicit, I have alsways been taught, you pay on your increase, especially if you own a business. I guess if you were really well off, you could pay on the gross. But many businesses would go under if you paid in the gross and the government too.
I have always been taught and aware in my Wards that increase was teh word used, not interest.
For a wage earner, that is everything, and that most likely applies in my case. But in a business, they have expenses to operate. Now the monies you pay your family, would be all.
I asked our Bishop, he basically told me, we do not get involved, it is as you say, between the Lord and myself. And quoted me the quidelines.
I always like to get a large run of ideas and facts before making any decision, then approach the Lord.
I do not think I would of sought futher insight on this matter if not for my wife’s questions and comments. I want to do right by the Lord, but don’t want to shaft my self in ignorance. We live by light and truth, and if we seek it, the Holy Ghost will let us know. I guess it feels a bit funny turning over 50% our our normal yearly income, for tithing in one envolope. I am a disabled veteran, barely making it, but still do not feel remorseful for what I pay on a monthly basis of income.
Thanks for your advise.
Perhaps you are looking at the question the wrong way. The Lord asks for tithing to turn us into givers. Why are you paying tithing? Are you afraid you will burn in hell if you don’t? Giving because of fear is not the same as giving because you care. You need to reexamine why you are giving in the first place. Then you can give and feel good about the amount you do give.
I don’t do things out of habit, I reseach and pray, and when I get a answer, I act on it.
I was just covering the bases, more to satify my wife, in case she asks me, after I tith.
I guess too, I would rather keep it, but will turn loose if it, because I love the Lord.
I am a disabled Veteran, on a fix income, living in the expensive state of CA. I have never had much, and my family often does without.
So you will have to excuse me, if I do some research before I write the check. It is not hard to write the monthly tithing check, would have it not other way. But to write one, which equals half of what VA gives me a year, takes my breath away. Especially after 3/4 of my inheritance check was wiped out by a Equity Loan, which mostly was to fund my wife University degree, and expenses from her not working, and etc.
The Church has always told us to research and decide, then pray and do.
Your dilema is similar to child support. The father pays tithing and then child support. The mother then pays tithing again on the same money.
Perhaps the person who left you the money had already paid tithing on it. How would you know for sure is also a good question.
The money came from my father who died recently. And there is yet more to come from the sale of his home, and later more from my mothers line, as property is sold also.
My father was not LDS, he admired the changes I made in my life because of it, but did not believe in wasting money in such a manner.
He grew up in Oklahoma, during the dust bowl days. He a saw local ministers and pastors, preach hell fire and damnation on Sunday. Then chase women, drink, get drunk and cheat people out of money during the week. So he came to believe, that all Religons were just out to cheat you out of your money and manipulate you.
There was time, that he threatened to not give me my Birthday, Christmas and etc monies, if I was going to tithe it. But fortunately, that never happened, most likely because of my mother.
Do you feel responsible to pay your fathers tithing for him?
Do you believe there is some bigger reward or punishment if you do or do not the money?
Why do you feel like you should give it?
What do you think about your wife’s position on it?
Did you earn the money?
Would you pay tithing on a gift? For examle, if you father had given you a new car valued at $20,000 would you sell the car so you could give the church $2,000?
If someone gives you a bag of tomoates, do you pay 10% of what the value would be if you had bought them? Do you pay tithing on birthday and christmas gifts?
Why would you need to pay tithing on a cash gift but not a merchandise gift?
No,I do not feel a need to pay my fathers tithing.
I want to pay a tithe, because I love and the Lord, and want to follow the commandments.
We are blessed when we do what is right, and are not blessed when we don’t. I don’t expect any punishment, if I did not pay it now, but the rewards in heaven later on, will not be there. That I have a testimony of. I know too much light, to turn against it.
I feel that my wife does not understand, she is on a little lower level, when it comes to this part of the Gospel.
Would I pay tithing on a car my father gave me. Now that is something I forgot about. I got a electric car from this deal too, worth maybe at most $1,200 to nearly $2,000. Had not thought about that yet.
Many years ago, when I left my abusive X wife and fled with no money. My father gave me his El Camino, worth around $2,000. I was living only on my present VA disability of $300 per month, and sending $200 per month to my X for child support. If not for my friend who took me, in for exchange for helping him maintain the lawns and grounds around his large acreage rental. I would of been in the streets. I only had $100 per month to live on, plus food stamps of maybe $40. Was able to eat some from my friends table.
My friend was getting church assistance, so I never got any, guess I was part of this family. But mostly ate my own food, most of the time.
I always pay more of a tithe then what I get from VA each month, to cover the little gifts and etc. This is besides birthdays and Christmas. For all of the little things that come my way, and a few times when I have fallen behind.
My wife and I are just finishing up a 2 1/2 year part time service mission. Where we have to drive nearly an hour one day per week and one saturday to run a Home Storage Dry pack cannery.
We pay a tithe, but it never seems enough, even with the service we put in as well. We can only hope and pray, the Lord will truly cover our shortage, if we are trying our best.
We have to go by the spirit, we either feel comfortable with our actions or we do not. If I am short the spirit lets me know.
Perhaps you have answered your question,
Realize this morning as I was deciding how much. That the real point or qualm in question. Was not how much to pay. But the voices of my wife and the natural man withing.
The window paying her small amount, is more blessed then the rich man who easily pays his tithe.
For a person, or even my brothers who earns 3 to 4 times what my wife and I earn a year. The inheritance tithe is would be a small portion of their yearly income. Unlike myself, which could be half of my normal average yearly income.
I guess too, when I do get some money in, it is always gone too fast, and I never really benefit from it here and now, usually goes to bills or something.
I usually work out my own solutions, that it why I ask questions and like to brainstorm. It opens up the thinking processes, and you don’t get hung up on things.
It seems like you are discounting your wife in this process. It would be wise to include her in the process.
Do you consider this to be earned money or gift money?
David, I wouldn’t say it matters whether income is earned or gifted. What matters is whether it’s “income.” As I said before, that’s for you to decide. Don’t forget that you have the Gift of the Holy Ghost to guide you.
ltbugaf said: David, I wouldn’t say it matters whether income is earned or gifted. What matters is whether it’s “income.â€
There is a little more to it than it being income. Cash does not make it income. Cash is simply a medium of exchange for convenience.
For example, if you had inherited 100 acres of land, would you donate 10 acres to the church or sell 10 acres and give the proceeds to the church?
You need to decide if the money is income or a gift and if you owe tithing on it. You should also be in agreement with you wife on what you do since she is your partner.
If the money is income or a gift, I didn’t think there was a difference. Money coming across your palms is and increase, if you earned it or it was a gift.
It was an inheritance, after my fathers death. Not there is complications if one would so choose to make them.
I see the inheritance too, as pay back for all the years of free labor I performed for my father growing up as a youth and a young man after the returning back from the service, before leaving home again to marry.
Then what about the arrangement with my father some time later. I went up to Oregon to develop a apple orchard for him, on land he bought. A contract was to be drawn up before heading for Oregon, from CA. He told me, never mind, I am your Father. But then he fell though on his part of the agreement, and we had to bail, loosing the money we earned as a increase on our home we sold before moving. Which money he originally told us to put into savings, which we later had to use up to live on and to fix equipment on the ranch.
Then now, if he had passed down the inheritance from my mothers side of the family, after my mothers death. I could of paid bills, and would of not collected a huge debt, from the payment of interest which went along with it.
Which I just paid off with nearly 3/4s of the this part of the inheritance, from the sale of stock and bonds and such.
I guess it may not really matter, if you deal with it all, like the Lord.
When you fall down on paying a full tithe, and restart, the Lord is happy that you are paying a tithe. You are then perfect in tithe paying, from then on, you are forgiven the past. With the admonition, that you can make it up, if you are some say able to.
The Lord is ready to receive and forgive, and you start from now. The Lord basically accepts the shortage and covers it for you, be it tithe or other sins, it is all the same.
So looking at it that way, should we bring back into the picture, past debts, to lay claim for future blessing or monies?
Any way, it is over, I handed in a tithe, on the full inheritance and including the electric car.
Even with the electric car, you might be able to figure what it is worth from those selling them online used. But it might need all new batteries, which could cost easily $1,000. Do you deduct the price of the batteries, from the price you see online, to determine the worth or increase? I didn’t, maybe should have, but I didn’t.
If I inherited 100 acres, not sure what I would of done. I guess maybe sold 10 acres to pay the dept.
Better yet, now that I think of it, I would of tried to sign over 10 acres to our Ward or Stake as land to be used by the saints to grow food or fruit. I have not heard of such goings on lately, but 25 years ago, that came down from the Presidency. That each ward rent or lease and for ward welfare project, to grow food.
Could also be used by ward members to grow food for themselves, for those who do not have land to do it on..
I hope you feel good about the choice you made.
I feel good about the choice,but that does not help my mind and body feel better. Actually I am feeling a bit anxious, realizing most of the money is gone. And not spent on anything that really benefits me or on something I want; and it was my inheritance.
If I a larger piece of land and a home as well, to continue and expand fruiting plant research. I would be much better off.
If my father had died 7 years ago, and had gotten the same money then. I could of gone out and boughten a few acres with a nice home.
Now, here in this area of CA, the same money would only be a down payment. Land prices here have gone up 6 to 8 times in the last 7 years. From all of the move ins from the Bay Area especially.
I guess I can wait for the great plague or something to wipe half the population out. Then the price of land would be cheap.
Smaller acreage with no home can sell easily for $200 to $400 and acre; with not home or just a old small one. Cheaper by the acre if you can afford larger tracts of farm land. A nice home on 1 to 3 acres can run you $500,000 to $1,200,000
People coming in from the Bay Area making more money, compared to the inland Central Valley area, have driven the prices crazy. Most average wage earners who live nad work here can no longer buy a home here.
$200 to $400 an acre? Where I live, land with scrub brush (no farming, maybe ranching) cost more than $1,000 an acre.
With every boom comes the bust.
My error, I meant $200,000 to $400,000 per acre for mall acreage.
There was a piece of land, about 1 acre, near a creek, but up on the shoulder. A 30 year old modular home and a double wide; they wanted $399,000. Said the modular had a concrete foundation, but it was only cinder blocks. And the modular was really in need of repair, and was more like a double wide, not like the new modulars. Plus the soil was high clay, and the dry soil had cracks which could swallow up a kitten.
There is a similar place in a small town a couple miles from here. Same price, for a 3/4 acre, with irrigation from canal water. The home is like ours, built in the 1930’s, but not remodeled like ours. This home has been upgraded on the surface, but not internally.
When we were looking for a home to buy 7 years ago, when house prices dropped some. We were looking at a 1.2 acre, with a nice somewhat older brick home, with 4 or 5 bedrooms. Also had a nice size shed and a office of sorts with a restroom, which could be used as a office, craft room or what ever. The price was $112,000. Now that home would sell for around $600,000 or more.
Have you looked into tithing free bonds?
Come on George, you have to be kidding. What, are these tithe free bonds, real looser junk bonds where you never make a profit, so you never have pay tithe on their profit, because their isn’t one.
Some junk bonds make a lot of profit for the holder.
Tithing Free Bonds is a nickname. You purchase your receipt in various amounts (usually multiples of 10) and in return you get a receipt to give to your Bishop (during tithing settlement) in lieu of a cash contributation.
For example, you are going to donate 1,000 to your church. You buy a tithing free receipt for 1,000 and you recieve 11 coupons for 100 each to be given to your church one per year. You then get to claim 1,100 in tithing the year you donate it since that is the religious value of the receipt.
The interest is exempt from tithing since you donated it to your church.
You can also redeem undonated receipts according to the schedule. For example, you leave your church or die.
If you want to know more about them, ask your Bishop to look them up in his special handbook regarding donations. This is one way rich people donate more and spend less.
There could be tax benefits depending upon how you do things.
If your Bishop is not tax savy, ask your SP or the local GA.
I’m surprised Kim does not have a post about them. Of course, they might not be available in foreign countries like Canada.
You could also call BYU and ask for the company that sells them each summer via students.
Hope this info helps.
David, I would encourage you to ask for something to back up this bond story, but I’ve learned better on other threads. Glad you aren’t entirely gullible.
Naive about some things maybe yet, but not too gullible. I know and understand too much about what is going on in the world. Too much, it over loads and scares me at times, so I avoid most often thinking about it.