Comments on: Golden Plates Not Used in Translation? https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-plates-not-used-in-translation/ Thought-provoking commentary on life, politics, religion and social issues. Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:46:04 +0000 hourly 1 By: ltbugaf https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-plates-not-used-in-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-10282 Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:46:04 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-platesnot-used-in-translation/#comment-10282 Tomatoes, if you think what I’ve said above is “denying facts” then I think you’re seeing what isn’t there. Nothing in my statement impugns the honesty of the witnesses who described what they saw. All I say is that there are probably things they didn’t see, and events they didn’t describe. We shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that they didn’t translate the plates—Joseph did. He, as far as I know, was silent on whether or how the plates may have played a role in their translation. The fact that he had them present while translating doesn’t seem insignificant to me. We know that he used the hat method sometimes, using one of his translating devices. We just don’t know what he did ALL of the time.

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By: RoastedTomatoes https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-plates-not-used-in-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-10187 Wed, 31 May 2006 03:27:27 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-platesnot-used-in-translation/#comment-10187 ltbugaf, you’ve made a common mistake in terminology; the “Urim and Thummim” and the seer stone are different words for the same thing. The phrase “Urim and Thummim” was used to describe the translator that came with the plates, and also to refer to Joseph Smith’s seer stone from his treasure-digging days. The Book of Mormon as we currently have it was (according to Martin Harris) entirely produced with Joseph Smith’s earlier seer stone; Joseph evidently lost the stone that came with the plates when the 116 pages were lost, and subsequently had to translate using his older stone, which was dug out of a well on the property of a neighbor in Palmyra.

Beyond that, the descriptions of the translation as involving the seer stone in a hat and no direct use of the plates come from Oliver Cowdrey, Martin Harris, Peter Whitmer, David Whitmer, Emma Hale Smith, and Emma’s family. Nearly everyone involved in the translation project has given us at least one statement of description of the mode of translation and the earliest statements are essentially unanimous about the mode of translation and about the fact that the plates weren’t directly used in the translation project.

The question of how the Book of Mormon was produced isn’t really pending. Joseph Smith translated it by putting a seer stone or Urim and Thummim in a hat and burying his face in the hat. The people who did the translation work with Joseph have told us that this is the only way it was done. The pending question is why the plates had to be preserved in light of the historical fact–from the people closest to the translation project–that they weren’t used in the translation. Denying this fact doesn’t solve the problem. It just makes the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon and others close to Joseph Smith into liars.

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By: Kim Siever https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-plates-not-used-in-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-10185 Wed, 31 May 2006 03:19:09 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-platesnot-used-in-translation/#comment-10185 t unreasonable to think that he used the plates at some times and not at others." It's possible. It's just odd that we reportedly have several accounts of him translating without them and not a single one of him translating with them.]]> “Since we know the methods varied, it isn’t unreasonable to think that he used the plates at some times and not at others.”

It’s possible. It’s just odd that we reportedly have several accounts of him translating without them and not a single one of him translating with them.

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By: ltbugaf https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-plates-not-used-in-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-10175 Wed, 31 May 2006 02:32:07 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-platesnot-used-in-translation/#comment-10175 By the way, Tomatoes, I certainly agree that it’s a “pending question”—as are almost all the questions posed on this ‘blog.

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By: Mary Siever https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-plates-not-used-in-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-10173 Wed, 31 May 2006 02:28:02 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-platesnot-used-in-translation/#comment-10173 This doesn’t happen often (well, ok, probably more often than I think) but I agree with ltbugaf (first paragraph #9). I believe the plates were needed in translation, though I don’t know if he used them constantly (for example, I don’t know how the Urim & Thummim were used, so maybe the words appeared in them? I can’t say for sure).

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By: ltbugaf https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-plates-not-used-in-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-10165 Wed, 31 May 2006 02:05:24 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-platesnot-used-in-translation/#comment-10165 Re: #9, I don’t say that Joseph couldn’t reveal a text without having the original in hand. What I say is that a lot of people went to a huge amount of trouble and danger in order for Joseph to have the plates. He must have had them for a very important reason, and I have a hard time believing that they weren’t needed for the translation.

Rick, in #10 you’re misinterpreting the word “spiritual” in the term “spiritual eyes.” A man can’t be in the presence of some holy things without being transformed—becoming “spiritual” in a very specific sense. When the Three Witnesses saw the plates, they did so by the power of God. In other words, they did so “spritually.” The Eight Witnesses, on the other hand, saw the plates in a very ordinary way, with their everyday eyesight.

The descriptions of the translation cited in these comments come from Emma Smith and from at least one other witness, who saw some of what he did, but certainly not all of it. He used more than one method for translating. We know, at the very least, that he used two separate instruments—the Urim & Thummim and the Seerstone—and that he also translated without the use any such instruments. Since we know the methods varied, it isn’t unreasonable to think that he used the plates at some times and not at others.

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By: RoastedTomatoes https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-plates-not-used-in-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-10144 Tue, 30 May 2006 20:00:46 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-platesnot-used-in-translation/#comment-10144 Roland, a lot of people make that assumption. But the accounts of first-hand witnesses attest that he didn’t have the Gold Plates open. There wasn’t a curtain or any separation between Joseph and the scribes most of the time, and Joseph had his face buried in the hat where the seer stone was–so it would have been impossible for him to see the plates while translating in any case.

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By: Roland https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-plates-not-used-in-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-10139 Tue, 30 May 2006 17:25:02 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-platesnot-used-in-translation/#comment-10139 I distinctively remember hearing that over the course of the Book of Mormon translation project, the work of translation got progressively easier for Joseph Smith as he got more familiar with the text and characters contained on the Gold Plates.

I’ve always assumed that he had them open.

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By: rick https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-plates-not-used-in-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-10135 Tue, 30 May 2006 16:28:56 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-platesnot-used-in-translation/#comment-10135 “intended only as an aid to belief for the 11 witnesses”

…even if they only saw the plates with ‘spiritual eyes’?

It’s odd to me that the word spiritual would be used if they indeed required some physical proof.

It’s seems the golden plates are largely irrelevant to the translation process, as well as not really being required by any of the participants to bolster any sort of belief in the process.

Which begs the question, I suppose, what was the actual purpose of the plates, and why did Joseph have to retrieve them at all?

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By: RoastedTomatoes https://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-plates-not-used-in-translation/comment-page-1/#comment-10100 Tue, 30 May 2006 02:47:26 +0000 http://www.ourthoughts.ca/2006/05/29/golden-platesnot-used-in-translation/#comment-10100 Itbugaf, I’m not sure that your argument quite works. When Joseph Smith produced the text of John’s parchment which now comprises D&C 7, it seems not to have been an obstacle that he didn’t actually possess the parchment. But this small translation project was undertaken in 1829, during the course of the Book of Mormon translation project. Furthermore, the John’s parchment translation project used the same means (seer stone in a hat, often described these days as “Urim and Thummim”) as the Book of Mormon translation. So, by comparison, we see that possession of the source text is actually irrelevant to Joseph Smith’s divine ability to produce a translated text. We are lead to conclude that the plates are, as the eyewitnesses attested, beside the point.

Your questions about why the plates would have been written and preserved, at great risk and effort, when they were not used in the translation are valid and deserve a satisfactory answer. Van Wagoner and Walker propose that the plates were intended only as an aid to belief for the 11 witnesses. If that isn’t a satisfactory answer, then this may be something we’d best treat as a pending question.

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