Alma 13:3
“And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works”
Are we to understand that we exercised faith and performed good works in the pre-mortal existence?
Yeah. We exercised faith that Christ would redeem us. And I was a missionary to those who were undecided as to whether or not they’d choose mortality–according to my PB.
Though they may have exercised faith and good works in premortal life, the faith and good works discussed in this verse may not be premortal. The people in question were called and prepared according to the foreknowledge of God–that is, God’s knowing ahead of time of the faith and good works they would exercise in mortal life.
Are we to understand that we exercised faith and performed good works in the pre-mortal existence?
Yes.
Uh huh.
K.
Yes. Many became noble and great during the preexistence
Sometimes in reading my PB, I wonder how I was so much better back then than I am now. It gives me hope forimprovement though :)
I don’t disagree that many people showed faith and good works before coming to earth. But the faith and good works in discussed in this verse are mentioned in connection with the foreknowledge of God. So when you ask, “Are we to understand…?” I assume you mean, are we to understand from this verse? And this verse alone doesn’t necessarily support the idea that we exercised faith and performed good works in premortal life. There are OTHER sources for that.
“The people in question were called and prepared according to the foreknowledge of God—that is, God‘s knowing ahead of time of the faith and good works they would exercise in mortal life.”
That sounds more like predestination than foreknowledge.
Not at all. Predestination would mean that God had forced them to do what they were doing. Their free will is in no way violated by the fact that God knows which free choice they’re going to make. He knows about the faith and good works they’re going to exercise on earth, using their own free will, and he selects them on that basis.
I wouldn’t be so quick to say that predestination constitutes force.
That being said, is God so omniscient that he knew what choices each person will make in every circumstance before nay of us were born? If so, and he is deciding priesthood ordinations beforehand on this, how free is so-called free will?
Kim, how does the ordination take away free will? Does an ordination to the Priesthood in mortal life take away the agency of the Priesthood holder? Of course not–as the apostasy of several apostles in our own dispensation shows. Likewise, I don’t see how this foreordination takes away any freedom from anyone.
Precisely Kim.
If I know exactly how someone will behave, given a certain situation – and then judge them for their behaviour, is that really fair?
Rick, it isn’t fair because your knowledge isn’t perfect. God’s knowledge is. I also don’t see what “judgment” you’re talking about.
Kim, you asked, “is God so omniscient that he knew what choices each person will make in every circumstance before nay of us were born?”
If this is not your interpretation of the “foreknowledge of God,” then what is?
If God knows every decision we’re going to make before we make it, then the concept of free will and sin have no place.
I don’t necessarily believe God knows EVERY choice we are EVER going to make.
K.
Rick, you said, “If God knows every decision we’re going to make before we make it, then the concept of free will and sin have no place.”
Why?
How does foreknowledge of what you will freely choose to do compromise your freedom? It doesn’t.
Free will is incompatible with exhaustive foreknowledge. So I agree with Kris, Kim, and Rick.
Geoff, the link you’ve offered discusses the incompatibility of free will with “determinism.” But as should be obvious to you, I don’t believe in determinism. I believe that all our choices are made with free will (except as limited by such factors as mental illness, etc.) and that our Heavenly Father, knowing all things from the beginning (see 1 Nephi 9:6) knows what free-will choices we’re going to make. There’s absolutely nothing incompatible about those two beliefs.
“How does foreknowledge of what you will freely choose to do compromise your freedom? It doesn’t.”
An Example:
a) I *know* that given any chance you will choose the left branch of any two-way intersection.
b) I *know* that given any chance, you will choose the right most branch of any intersection.
Is is possible for me to give you free will, and yet design a maze that will both allow *some* people to get through, but will *not* allow you to get through?
Of course.
Have I diminished your ‘free-will’?
Not from your perogative, but in the greater picture, I have made this an impossible task for you.
btw, great link Goeff
b) should read:
b) I *know* that given any chance, you will choose the right most branch of any OTHER intersection.
Rick, no, you haven’t diminished my free will. You haven’t diminished my capacity to choose which way I will turn. What you have done is determine what the results of my choice will be. We are all free to make our own choices, but never free to choose what the consequences thereof will be.
Did God diminish the free will of those who took the 116-page manuscript from Martin Harris, because he knew they would do so and made other provision for the scriptural material to be included in the Book of Mormon translation? No. They still had freedom to choose, and exercised that choice. But he outsmarted them, because he already knew what was going to happen.
Assuming, of course, that that is the reason Mormon included the small plates of Nephi. Mormon, however, doesn’t give a specific reason why he included them other than he thought they were a good read.
I stand in quite awe of the missing 116 pg analogy with which you have just presented me.
It’s just all so clear now.
(scarcasm off)
If that’s the best example of free will in the presence of exhaustive foreknowledge, I sorry to tell you that I will forever remain unconvinced.
There are generally two ways people explain exhaustive foreknowledge — Determism or God living “outside of time”. In either case real free will is incompatible with foreknowledge though. If at this moment God *knows* you will be damned after this life you have no power to change that — therefore you do not have free will as I understand it. Exhaustive foreknowledge requires a fixed future and real free will requires an open future.
See concurrent discussion going on here. See a series of related posts here.
Rick, I was kind of hoping you would offer some reasoning or argument, rather than just dismissive and contemptuous language. I’ll have to assume you have no answer to the example I gave.
Kim, Doctrine & Covenants 10:38-43 seems to say that this was the Lord’s purpose in inspiring Mormon to include the small plates.
Kim, your characterization of Mormon’s reason for including the small plates is also wrong according to Mormon’s own words in Words of Mormon 1:7. He included the small plates because the Spirit told him to, for a purpose the Lord knew, because “the Lord knoweth all things which are to come.”
It seems many people on this thread don’t believe that God does know all things which are to come. But Mormon did, and that was why he was inspired to include the small plates.
Sorry, I think that last sentence was confusing. I mean that Mormon did believe the Lord knows all things which are to come, and that it’s because God DOES know all things which are to come that Mormon was inspired to include the small plates.
I think God does know everything. He just doesn’t act on everything.
Or rather, He lets us make our own way.
“I’ll have to assume you have no answer to the example I gave.”
No, it’s because your argument is so similar to the ‘the bible is true, because it says so in the bible’ argument.
Geoff, I don’t see how a person whose future is known to God is thereby deprived of any freedom of choice. God doesn’t determine the future; he just knows it. Exhaustive foreknowledge doesn’t determine a “fixed future” if fixed future means a future not shaped by the free will of the individual.
Rick, I’m not trying to prove the truthfulness of the 116-page story or of the Book of Mormon. I’m trying to show that the Book of Mormon, and the history of the Book of Mormon, are both supportive of the belief that God knows all things from the beginning. Are you disagreeing with me on that point?
Geoff, by the way, I myself am a proponent of the “God is not limited by time” side. He sees all things, past, present and future, as if they are all now.
“If at this moment God *knows* you will be damned after this life you have no power to change that.”
Not so. God knows that you will be damned only because you, through your own free choices, will have chosen to be damned.
God knows that you will be damned only because you, through your own free choices, will have chosen to be damned.
What you believe then is what is properly called “hypothetical free will”. In the scenario I mentioned your damnation is fixed even though it is in the future and there is nothing you or God can do about it. It is as fixed as if it had already happened. You have the *hypothetical* option to choose otherwise but not the real option because the future is fixed. If that isn’t predesination then what is it?
Lots of people buy this idea, but don’t confuse it with real free will.
I agree with Itbugah, I think we’ve had this discussion, Geoff. I think God exists out of time, or time stands still where He is. I don’t think the future is fixed I think it’s already happened. Not for me or you, but God knows because He can see it. In my opinion.
This is a confusing subject. I’ve never understood the difference between foreordained and the other word.
Do I think I was righteous in the pre-existence? Yes. I think I was unique and special and all that, but so was everyone else. So was Satan.
I think somehow I had the sense to choose correctly on one thing, which now I can hardly believe because I want the world to do what I say. What a fool I was. If I could go back, I’d be a kick butt ministering angel.
I think plenty of “righteous” special wonderful spirits chose wrongly, which is really sad, huh?
Geoff: “your damnation is fixed…and there is nothing you or God can do about it.”
Again, that’s simply not true. The person chooses his own actions, with absolute freedom. At the same time, God already knows what is going to happen. So why do you insist on the false conclusion that there’s nothing the individual can do about it? Every choice he makes along the route is a free choice. No outside force constrains his will. If that isn’t free will, what is? Why do you insist that someone else’s mere knowledge of your choices, present and future, determines what the choices will be and takes away your freedom? That just doesn’t make sense.
Geoff, how are you defining damnation? My friend, the college graduate and teacher, always used to use that term when teaching Relief Society. I finally asked her and she laughed and said, “oh, you won’t go to the highest in the Celestial Kingdom.”
She clarified that from now on and there were some relieved looks. I think we were all thinking outer darkness, which didn’t make sense, but she was the guru.
Here are some scriptural passages that I think explicitly support my view. I’m sincerely curious about how these passages are interpreted or accounted for by those who deny that God knows everything that will happen in the future (assuming that they also believe in the truthfulness and divinity of the scriptures).
Acts 2:23 (God knew that Christ would be betrayed and crucified before it happened)
Acts 17:26 (God appointed beforehand the times and bounds of the habitations of all men)
1 Peter 1:2 (Peter was “elect” or in other words, chosen, to be an apostle according to God’s foreknowledge of him)
1 Nephi 9:6 (God knows all things from the beginning, which is why he can prepare a way to accomplish all he wants to do)
2 Nephi 2:24 (God knows all things)
2 Nephi 9:20 (There’s nothing God doesn’t know)
Words of Mormon 1:7 (God knows all things which are to come, so he can inspire Mormon to do according to his will in bringing the small plates to light)
Alma 13:7 (The order of the Priesthood was prepared “from eternity to all eternity” according to God’s foreknowledge of all things)
Alma 40:10 (God knows all the times appointed unto man)
Helaman 8:8 (God knows all the things that will befall the Nephites)
Doctrine & Covenants 38:2 and Moses 1:9 (all things are present before God’s eyes)
Abraham 2:8 (Jehovah knows the end from the beginning)
Itbugaf: So why do you insist on the false conclusion that there’s nothing the individual can do about it?
No I think you are missing the point. If God *knows* I *will* murder someone on Feb. 12, 2009 can I choose otherwise?
I may even think I am freely choosing along the way, but if God knows it will happen then it is fated and I am predestined to be a murderer. No matter how I try not to murder someone in 2009 it must happen because God knows it will happen. Changing a fixed future is as fruitless as changing the past.
If this is not the case please explain how.
Annegb,
I actually wasn’t defining damnation. I was just using that as an example of how a fixed future (rather than an open future) obliterates free will. Further, knowing what will happen in a fixed future is useless to God since he would know what he will do too and knowing what he will do means he cannot do otherwise (unless the future is open).
“Doctrine & Covenants 10:38-43 seems to say that this was the Lord’s purpose in inspiring Mormon to include the small plates.”
It could be interpreted that way. It could also be interpreted as the Lord saying, don’t worry about it, just use these other plates.
For all we know, the entire Book of Mormon could have been duplicated in the other two thirds that were sealed.
Dang, Geoff, you blew my theory all to hell.
That’s the only way I could figure out God was with each of us.
But, if it’s already happened and I’ve chosen in the future, then I’ve still chosen. Right?
I’ve tied a knot in my brain.
Perhaps a childlike faith would work in this type of case, just accept that God is with us and we can choose. HOW that happens is about as important as evolution vs. creationism.
But Ann,
I thought you didn’t like stupid faith?
K.
Geoff, re: #41: The reason you can choose otherwise is that the only reason God *knows* you will murder someone on Feb. 12 2009 is that he already sees what you will freely choose on that day. His knowledge doesn’t cause you to make that choice; you make it on your own. His knowledge doesn’t predetermine or predestine your actions. It’s untrue that “no matter how hard I try not to murder someone…it must happen.” If you are choosing not to murder someone that day, then God will not have foreseen you murdering. Rather than God’s foreknowledge determining your actions, it is your free choices that determine what God foresees. Your actions that day are determined by your choices, not by some else’s knowledge of your choices.
By the way, I forgot some more important scriptural support: 1 Nephi 12-14 contain Nephi’s extensive vision of future events. If God actually didn’t know these things were going to happen in the future, I don’t know why he would have shown them to Nephi in a vision. Was it just a lucky guess? Or does God just act as a charlatan, showing lots of visions full of predictions true and false, so that he can claim credit when some of them come true?
annegb, I really don’t see how Geoff has blown away anything of what you said, let alone to a domain of weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.
ok, i need to clarify my thoughts. Heavenly Father knows what is possible, not necessarily knows irrevocably, because in order to have freedom to choose it can’t be a foregone conclusion.
I believe as well that He knows what can happen based on choices we might make, but He doesn’t know for sure it will happen or rather, chooses not to know, He just knows what will happen based on choices we make.
Mary, why can’t your free choice in the future be the cause of God knowing now what your choice will be?