Culture

Excommunicated

Can someone be excommunicated and yet still be Christian? If so, can someone be excommunicated and yet still be Mormon?

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Kim Siever

Queer Mormon poet with radical political views. I have been married 27 years, and we have 6 children. Sunday school president. Served in the Utah Provo Mission.

51 thoughts on “Excommunicated”

  2. Depends on what you did to get excommunicated, doesn’t it?

  3. I agree with hh.. if I was ex’d because of spewing out false doctrine or due to repeat offenses I probably would not be advertising who I was. In my heart I would always remain a Mormon though.. unless I was advertising false godhood etc.. but if it was just due to a brain fart moment, mistakes happen

  4. Kim, perhaps the best examples of excommunicated Mormons are Lavina Fielding Anderson and D. Michael Quinn. Neither of them is a prolific teacher of false doctrine, and both of them have publicly stated that they want to be members of the church. They just aren’t allowed in.

    I can’t judge their hearts, of course, so I don’t know if they’re sincere. But I see no real reason to doubt their sincerity.

  5. As I am an excommunicated “member” I still feel Mormon. for those of us who are gay and excommunicated, there is not a way back into the church. I hetro sexual may repent and be rebaptised but gays can not change who we are. There is simply no place for us.

    My wife passed away when she was 30. She had cancer. I felt when she passed away that it was Heavenly Father’s way of telling me that I could not be a good husband because I was gay…. but that I could be a good father. Both of my daughters have been to the temple. I raised them alone as a gay man. they love me just the same. One of my daughters is president of her ward relief society. She has four beautiful children. Her husband is presently serving as second councilor to his stake president. I was both mother and father to my children. They love me even though I am no longer able to be a member. They also love my husband, who was raised Catholic. He is a wonderful man. We have been married now for two yeas and will be celibrating our second wedding aniversary on January 17. Nothing will change the feelings I have for my spouse or what I feel to be the sacredness of our relationship, or of the deep love I have for him.

    Now that my oldest grand daughter is a young woman, my daughter and her husband have told my grand daughter of my orientation. I received a beautiful letter from My grand daughter telling me of her love for me…… and for my spouse. i am thankful for this.

    I presently go to the Community of Christ, which is the former Reorganized Church. They have been so very kind to me. They have welcomed me warmly and made me to feel a part of them, even though I could join, I can not…. for I am not reorganized. They are the closest thing I could find to my original beliefs.

    I have gone to the LDS church on occasion since my excommunication. I do it only on the very rare special occasion. For my Grandchildren when I see them, or for a baby’s blessing. It is hard for me to go back. It is too painful.

    My first remembered thought as a child was when I was two years old. My mother dressed me up as a bride for Halloween. I never forgot that. I can still remember looking in the mirror and saying….. “you are beautiful. I want to be just like my mother.” One does not change thoughts that came and remained since they were two years old. Although I went to counciling, I am now quite happy with who I am. It would have been wonderful to be the same as most other people. I was not. I punished myself for fourty years as a temple going tithe paying member. I no longer punish myself. I love myself the way my Heavenly Father made me. My favorite hymm is I am a child of god. I believe that. I believe he loves me …… not in spite of who i am…. but the way i am.

    As the representative for Affirmation Mormon in Alberta, which is an organization for gay Mormons, I have met hundreds of gay LDS and former LDS members. They range in all sorts of varieties. From total athiests to firm temple going faithful. Some are still married and clinging on to their marriages. I know a former Bishop or a University Ward who was exed. He had 7 children. I know of two former High Councilmen who are now partners. They still send me beautiful poems and spiritual pieces to read. These are not evil people. They are good men and wonderful women who simply have decided that they need to be themselves.

    I am thankful for this blog….. I think many of you are not pleased to read the things I have to say. But I am thankful that I have a place to say them. It is the first time I have been able to express myself to other members and vent my frustrations.

    When I was first exed, I continued to go to my family home evening group for singles … which, I might add, I was the one who founded it. I mentioned to one of the members in the hall way…. not in the meeting.. my hope that one day gay people would be able to come back to the church as did the black people. This person went to the Bishop of her ward and told her what I said. I was told that I could not express my feelings on this subject. After that…. and other unfortunate things that members did to me after I was exed… I could no longer attend church. If I could not say even in the hall way outside of meetings…. my only hope of being accepted one day… then there was certainly no place for me to come to. I have not returned again except for special occasions.
    It is also interesting to note that I still hold the priesthood. When exed members are rebaptised, they do not have to be reordained. The priesthood is not taken away… it is just not alowed to be used. So in this respect… I still am a member of a sort.

  6. “I am thankful for this blog. . . It is the first time I have been able to express myself to other members and vent my frustrations.”

    Welcome. Hopefully, you’ll stay a while.

  7. Hi Dean.. strange how we never know what another goes through or feels till we hear thoughts such as yours… brings to mind the concept of judge not lest you be judged…

    I am glad you still consider yourself a member even though you are excommunicated… and who knows what the future will bring.. I hope it works out for you.

  10. Sorry, but what a lame question.

    It seems that you confuse a deep felt belief in Christ to following a particular religion. You can totally believe in Christ and still make the kinds of mistakes that could boot you out of the church! To even ask if you can still be Christian after being ex’ed shows either a desire to stir up conflict, or a lack of knowledge of what it means to be Christian.

    And as far as being a “mormon” we really aren’t supposed to be those anyway. We are supposed to be “latter day saints”, that is why there has been a lot of emphasis on the full name of our chruch lately, it is the one that was inspired and came from the scriptures.

    I think you could still feel in your heart that you believed everything the church taught even if you got ex’ed. People make mistakes, even serious ones, but that doesn’t mean that they have stopped believing sometime.

  11. So, Aimee Roo, you feel that both Christian and Mormon (or your preferred “Latter-day Saint”) are defined by what we believe, and not our membership in a specific church?

  12. Absolutly! Your question sets it up that if you are ex’ed then you may (possibly) no longer be a Christian… however there are so many people who believe in Christ who aren’t LDS, so why would one aspect change the other?

    Just because someone makes a serious mistake such as adultery, that doesn’t mean that he/she no longer believes in Christ or the attonement. It just means in some cases he/she is no longer able to be a member in the church. Obviously there are people who are asked to leave because they no longer believe in any part of the gospel, and it’s possible that they don’t belive in Christ anymore.

    But by the same token there are a lot of members who are in full fellowship who may be totally clueless as to what they really believe. They may have the membership, but not the actual testimony. So yes, you should be defined by what you actually believe… not just your membership , or lack thereof.

  13. “you should be defined by what you actually believe”

    Now if only we had some sort of ‘thought police’ to determine who was believing what they should be believing…

    ;)

  14. Dean’s assertion that homosexuals have no way back into the Church simply isn’t true.

  15. ltbugaf is right. homosexuals can participate fully in the Church as long as they abstain from homosexual behaviour. The same would be true for anyone, for example anyone (homosexual or heterosexual) engaging in sexual relations outside of marriage.

  18. Being married to a member of the same sex would be an example of homosexual behavior.

  20. ltbugaf, unfortunately it’s not a type of homosexual behavior that is sinful though…

  21. So then the view of homosexual behaviour as sin has nothing to do with it being outside of marriage. In that regard, they cannot participate fully in the church as heterosexual members can.

  22. It depends on whether you define a person as “a homosexual” based on his conduct or based on his feelings. If you base that designation on feelings, then a “homosexual” can be a faithful member of the Church. He can have homosexual feelings and desires and choose not to commit sin.

  23. So, you think that a married, homosexual couple that does not have sexual interaction can still participate fully in the church?

  24. No. I think that by being married to a member of the same sex, both members of said couple would be defying the Prophet.

  26. So, again, that depends on how you define “homosexuals.” People with homosexual feelings, or tendencies, or whatever else you want to call them, can certainly participate fully in the Church. People who choose, of their own free will, to engage in homosexual relations, or choose, of their own free will, to defy the Prophet, are simultaneously choosing, not to participate fully in the Church.

  27. Actually, in this case, it makes no difference. If two men marry each other, they will not be able to participate fully in the church irrespective of whether they simply love each other or have sex with each other.

  28. Any two men who team up to defy the Prophet will not be able to participate fully in the Church.

  29. I also don’t think the scenario of two men who choose to be married to each other but never engage in any sexual activity with one another has any relationship to reality. If you can find such a pair, I’ll be quite shocked.

  32. Marriage is presumed to be, among other things, a sexual relationship.

  33. I could tell you the people of whom I know in this situation, but I doubt you’d beleive me, and I doubt they would be comfortable sharing their names.

  34. Of people who have entered into same-sex marriages without any interest in same-sex sex? You could tell me the people of whom you know in that situation?

  35. No, of heterosexual couples who entered into marriage for purposes other than having sex, and who (to my knowledge) have never had sex with each other.

  36. I don’t care if you can find heterosexual couples whose sex lives are unusual or nonexistent. That isn’t what we’re talking about. I told you your scenario had little do with reality, when you proposed a same-sex marriage between two men who don’t engage in sex with each other. I stand by that statement, and I doubt very seriously that you could point to any such pair in the real world.

  37. That is what I was talking about when I asked you, “Why not? Plenty of heterosexual couples marry each other and never actually have sex.”

    If heterosexual couples can lead married lives void of or independent of sex, why can it not be conceivable that homosexual couples can do the same?

  38. And yet again, I’m trying to lure you back to the real world rather than the “conceivable” one.

  39. Since it is doubtful you have statistics on all homosexual couples and their sexual activity, forgive me if I politely balk at your definition of “real world”.

  40. Irrespective of their sexual practices, two people entering into a same-sex marriage would be defying the Prophet, and guilty of apostasy.

  41. Exactly. Which is what I was gettign at when I stated, “So then the view of homosexual behaviour as sin has nothing to do with it being outside of marriage. In that regard, they cannot participate fully in the church as heterosexual members can.”

  42. I agree that it has nothing to do with being in or out of marriage. Homosexual sex is sinful whether in or out of marriage. Defiance of the Prophet is sinful whether on the topic of same-sex marriage or something else.

    I disagree that homosexuals cannot participate fully in the Church. They can. They can choose not to engage in sinful practices and remain faithful Latter-day Saints.

  43. “They can choose not to engage in sinful practices and remain faithful Latter-day Saints.”

    Being a faithful Latter-day Saint is not the same as participating fully. That being said, even if there actions were exemplary, the fact of the matter is, that married homosexual couples cannot participate fully in the church. Regardless of whether they have sex or not.

    I guarantee you that if two men married each other but never had any sexual relations, their participation in church activity would be very limited.

  44. Kim, one of the sinful practices they would need to abstain from is apostasy in the form of public defiance of the Prophet, which they would be doing by being married to a member of the same sex.

  45. There’s something definitely Orwellian about the phrase, “public defiance of the Prophet”.

  46. It’s no more Orwellian than the NAACP kicking out one of its members for advocating the reinstitution of Jim Crow laws.

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