When and how did elders quorum become a group of 20/30 somethings and high priests group become a group of everyone else?
I was having my first PPI as elders quorum president with my bishop last night, and we were discussing all the older members of our ward who are assigned to elders quorum in the computer. They are not active and hold the priesthood office of elder, so the computer assigns them to our quorum. The oldest is 92.
At first, we discussed how some of them need to be assigned to the high priests, such as those in their 80s and 90s. As we started to get toward those in their 40s and 50s, however, things started to become less clear cut.
So we chatted some more about it. At the end we had determined that the tendency to send older brethren to high priests group based on age has developed some problems. It destroys quorum unity, it makes it difficult to staff quorum positions, it removes training opportunities for new home teachers, etc.
We concluded that we would leave things as they are now (all those brethren remaining in elders quorum) and that the bishop would discuss it in bishopric meeting and PEC.
After the meeting, I gained a different perspective on the two groups. I really think that high priests group should be reserved for past bishopric members, high councilmen, stake presidency members, etc and for those who are more spiritually mature. Elders quorum is for people who are still struggling with the basics and need to learn things on a more fundamental level.
If the Relief Society is not split based on age, why should the Melchizedek Priesthood quorums be?
I noticed something kind of intereting last Sunday. I helped out by driving 4 boys on their FO routes. The fathers were split 50 50 HP or Elder. It seemed like the sons of HP collected FO’s from HP and sons of Elders collected FO’s from Elders. Have you ever seen a division like this before? I never really paid any attention to it. I do know the Bishop had to approve the routes but I assumed he needed to make sure the boys did not go to some wacko’s house. Any thoughts on FO collections by Priesthood?
In our ward, the deacons go with priests who can drive. The families they visit are people who do not come to church.
“It seemed like the sons of HP collected FO’s from HP and sons of Elders collected FO’s from Elders.”
I’d say “seemed” is the operative word here. Fast offering routes are generally designed with geographical concerns foremost. But if you’re curious about how and why your ward is organizing its fast offerings routes, why don’t you just ask the people in charge, rather than a bunch of anonymous strangers who don’t know the answer?
Bill, I know a bishop who was excommunicated for having an affair. He was out of the church for 7 years and then was re-baptized and called to serve in a bishopric shortly after. I don’t know if he was called to be a bishop again.
Our stake clerk has been excommunicated twice.
It happens all the time here in southern Utah. Lots of sinners here.
excommunicated twice? oi, you’d think he learned his lesson the first time and avoided doing whatever it was he did! oh well, some people have to have it drummed into them I guess…
Well, you know what they say,”If at first you don’t succeed…”
Or was that,”The third time is the charm” ?
It did seem strange becasue my sons collect from both but the locations are like Utah next door to each other. What was strange is all the elder houses we missed so the HP sons could collect.
I am impressed that someone would go thru all the grief of being ex-ed several times and yet still come to church. My hat is off to them. My thought is that they are trying to get their life in order and they are being honest about their faults.
I also think exing and disfellowshipping is used way too often. We are supposed to be a Church about love and forgiveness not one of kicking you out if your not perfect.
With that said – I also think those who are evil need to be exed. I had a seminary teacher who turned homo and tried to get memebers of our Ward to follow him as a prophet. He needed to be exed.
I had told my parents he was either the most rightous man I had ever meet or the most evil about two months before it came out what he was doing.
Do I remember something being said earlier about the most righteous?
I’m just teasing.
I have received several emails from Ward Members wanting me to send an email to HBO demanding the cancel a show called Big Love. The email gave the impression it was approved of by the Church. Have any of you received this email? I did the HBO on demand to see what the fuss was about and the show I saw was in SLC, I do not recall it mentioning the Church except once when the leader of the Perverts was explaining to a news person why the split away from the Church. I did not see any of the sex this email mentioned. In fact, I think daytime soap operas are for more disgussing. When I channel surf the Mexican channels are the raunchy ones. Anyways – I was wondering if any of you knew why this email is being sentout and does the Church want us to send emails or is it some members doing something on their own that is not Church approved. I only saw the one show so I really have no opinion except it made me angry at how the perverts (they are perverts) treat their families so bad and old men marrying girls under 16. It really showed what a perverted life style multiple wives create when you do it outside of the Lord’s way. I expect there is a better blog than this one but I like the opinions you guys have expressed.
I hope Kris is ok. Have not seen her respond in awhile. I like her fiery attitude.
“I expect there is a better blog than this one but I like the opinions you guys have expressed.”
That depends how you define better.
You may be interested in this post.
I have read most of these posts with some interest. As someone who was born not being able to hold the Priesthood until 1978, I do wish you would all see what a blessing it is to HOLD the Aaronic or Melchizadeck priesthood.
My family and I were baptized in 1974, and then the family that baptized us left. My Mom, Dad sister and I were the only members–being black, we met every Sunday for Sunday School and Primary, but could not hold sacranemtn meetings.
Once in a while, the Mission President would fly down for a visit. We felt so blessed to have the sacrament when he and his councellors came.
With the revelation that all worthy members could hold the priesthood we were overjoyed! I was 12 at the time, and was ordained a deacon by my dad who was first ordained an Elder.
My dad remained an Elder while in his early 60’s until a few years after we moved to the US and was called to be a High Councelor. My Dad, brothers and I don’t care what office we hold, where we meet, or with which group of priesthood bretheren we meet as long as we get to serve the Lord, and help bless the lives of our families and others.
PeterN
Thank you SO much for saying this. The Priesthood is a blessing, and it is a privilege, not a “right” as some people think. Your view of it is conpletely correct. It isn’t a status placement or such. It is such a blessing that we have the priesthood available to us in the latter days.
PeterN – I appreciate your comments. I know they were from your heart. I expect it must have been hard for your father to know he was a good man and because of something he had no control over that he/his family were not part of the group. Question – How would it changes things for you (and anyone who cares to answer) if you were only allowed to be an Elder? Did you father attend Elders Quorum or High Priest Quorum while he was in in 50’s? If so, was he part of the group or treated like a visitor?
In our HP Quorum the ratio of HP to others is 1/3. The majority (2/3) of the members of the HP Quorum are not HP and yet they are treated differently than the ones who are actually HP. Is this the way the Lord would manage things or is of man?
Bill,
In response to your comment:
My family and I spoke of this many times. It was not difficult for us to not hold the priesthood because we were black. We knew the church is true, and had faith that we would hold the priesthood sometime in this life or the next.
My dad often told me that he never expected to hold the priesthood in this lifetime. He would quote the following:
Coming from this perspective, I hope you can understand that it doesn’t matter to us if we are Elders, High Priests, or meet in a combination of whatever group. Just as long as we can serve heavenly father and help those in whatever priesthood group we are assigned. Today, I am 40 and am an elder. I could be 95 and an elder, meeting with the elders and would still be happy as long as I can serve.
I hope I don’t sound “preachy” but I am just explaining my family and I feel.
I respect your situation, but just want to share how I see things. For me, its more about what I can contribute to whichever group or class or meeting I am in.
Amen, brother. I wish others had the same idea. I can imagine the look on the stake president’s face in a few years when he interview me to be made a high priest and I tell him no.
Kim said:
So, you’re planning to refuse to be ordained a high priest. Wow. I wouldn’t have expected that. Are there any other things the Stake President may ask you to do for which you’ve already planned your refusal?
ltbugaf
No he isn’t saying he would refuse it completely. He just means if he is called in to be ordained just because he has reached a certain age and not because he is recieving a calling where one needs to be a high priest.
Kim has been asked to do things from the stake president (different stake presidents) and he has never said no. Like when he was called as EQ president years ago shortly after we were married and the SP asked him to put his hair back to it’s original colour after he had bleached it blonde. He did this.
ltbugaf, I was not referring to the seating arrangements at GC. Those seats are assigned based on seniority and the power structure of the GA’s.
The seating assignments we have discussed is why does the family of a SP and his counselors get reserved seating for Stake Conference. There is no scriptural reference for it.
Mary – just a thought – What would be your feelings if Kim was asked to attend with the HP but was not allowed to participate. Do you think it would effect him? An example would be this – New counseor for HP Group and only HP’s are allowed to raise their hand to sustain. Would this bother Kim, would it bother you?
Why weren’t you referring to them? If you believe that any distinction between Priesthood leaders and other members is “evil to the core” and needs to be abolished, then why aren’t you going after the distinctions at General Conference?
Bill, well, I don’t see why he would be asked to attend unless he was a HP. Only members of the quorum vote, so he shouldn’t be attending unless he is a member of that quorum anyway.
Mary, there are situations where men who aren’t members of the quorum do attend the high priest group. That’s the topic of this thread. The direction of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have instructed that men who are older than most of the other elders should be invited (not forced) to attend the high priest group if they would feel more comfortable among the high priests, who are likely to be nearer their own age and have more in common with them.
Of course, you’re quite right that a person who’s not a member of a quorum doesn’t vote in the business of that quorum. That’s how the Lord chose to organize his priesthood.
Incidentally, this isn’t true just of older elders. It’s also true of men who hold only an Aaronic Priesthood office, or no priesthood at all. They are invited to attend the meeting of the Melchizedek Priesthood quorum that is generally closer to them in age.
I’m aware of that, but this doesn’t make them members of the quorum. I personally don’t see a problem with them not being allowed to vote or sustain if they are not members of the quorum. When we visit another ward or stake we don’t sustain people called to positions, while we are visiting. It’s never bothered me. However, I don’t see why EQ members should attend HP unless they are high priests. Being a member of a priesthood quorum shouldn’t be dependent on age. If they want to go fine, but that doesn’t make them high priests, since being a member of a priesthood quorum isn’t an automatic right anyway.
You’re right, it doesn’t make them members of the quorum, which, of course, is why they don’t vote. I was just responding to the part of your comment that said, “I don’t see why he would be asked to attend unless he was a HP.” But perhaps, since Kim is relatively young, you didn’t figure the other way would apply to him—and if so, I imagine you were right.
In fact, I can’t find a single thing in your comment I disagree with. So there! :)
Mary said:
Itbugaf is correct here. I have no intention to engage you, Mary, but a few comments about these last two observations of yours.
Sometimes EQ members are either asked, suggested, or encouraged (pick your point on the spectrum) to attend HP quorum meetings at the request of the bishop. The reason may be age related, training/development related, or even activation related (we have examples of all three in our quorum, for example), and the bishop’s reasoning is often not explained; whatever the reason, “elder elders” typically don’t just wander about looking for the softest chairs. If there’s a elder in a HP meeting (or v.v.), there’s typically a good reason for them to be attending there.
And age does play a factor in quorum involvement, albeit age is more applicable to the younger APH members (typically there are no seventeen-year-old-deacons meeting with the twelve-year-olds). I’m still learning about the logistics of HP quorums myself, but it would make perfect sense to me that, let’s say, an eighty-year-old convert (it could happen) who was ordained a priest after his baptism, would probably attend meetings with the HP and not with either the priests or elders.
If I understand you correctly, you mean to say that a priesthood holder, regardless of the office, doesn’t have an automatic right to membership in a quorum? I’d beg to differ here. From October 1998 GC:
Peace out.
I know, but I don’t see why it should. It doesn’t play a role in Relief Society.
I should clarify; Holding the priesthood isn’t a right. It’s a privilege and not every man is entitled to it, just because.
But how could it? There aren’t any authority divisions in RS. The PH typically has to deal with five subclasses (there are exceptions to this all over the church where all the APH meet together because of size and/or attendance), a logistical nightmare outside of the Church’s organizational structure. That automatically creates socio-psychological differences where they’re (currently) handled by age (although there is nice crossover when fathers and sons hometeach).
In the same talk I quoted from earlier, E. Christofferson quotes from E. Stephen L. Richards in explaining that quorums function as a class, a fraternity (the good kind), and a service unit. I’m not sure when 12, 14, 16, and 18-19 became canonized boundaries, but I do know that the duties of those groups are canonized. Less clear are the lines between EQ and HP.
BTW, if you read my previous comments back, you’ll see I agree with you re: EQ/HP and age. I’m working through this issue myself; I’m not always sure why we divide up: we each have the same lesson, we each have the same priesthood. Quorum business obviously differs. If there were a way to take care of that part, I’m on board for combining all the PH. I see a great benefit to both elders and HP in seeing one another’s perspectives on service, family dealings, and passing on wisdom (to any age).
Duly noted.
Right. Again, I don’t see why it should, however.
This is what happens when a thread goes too long; we’re just covering the same ground again. The priesthood is divided into quorums, because the Lord organized it that way. The Relief Society isn’t organized into quorums, because the Lord organized it that way. The natural functioning of the priesthood quorums results in one quorum tending to be older than the other. That’s it. We can go on all day about why the quorums shouldn’t be organized as they are, but they are.
I disagree that it is natural. At least not entirely. Based on my experience, much of the age difference between elders quorum and high priest group is artificial (i.e. moving men to high priests group because they are in their forties now).
I already explained why it happens naturally.
I’m not sure those comments explain it fully. I know plenty of bishops, high councilmen, stake clerks and bishopric counsellors (including former ones) who are around my age or younger. Conversely, I know of several brethren who are in their forties and fifties who have never been ordained as high priests.
Because they’ve never had calling requiring them to be high priests, or they’ve never requested to be ordained a high priest.
Right. But if high priests are older and elders are younger because of the nature of callings, this would not be the case.
The key is that most people that age have had callings requiring them to be High Priests or have requested to be called as such. Sure, there are exceptions, but generally speaking this is the case.
I’m now confused as to what you’re asking and the point.
That’s the point of the post. I don’t see why people should become high priests other than because of what I said in my post.
Kim, I think the general practice—I’m sure with exceptions—is not to ordain men high priests just because they’re “old enough” but rather to ordain them only when their callings require the high priesthood. That’s why some older elders get invited to attend with the high priests, without being ordained to their quorum.
My dad was ordained a high priest because he was “of the age”. He hasn’t had a calling where it was required.
Then I was (predictably :) ) right when I said there were exceptions.
The last three wards in which I have lived have practiced moving elders to high priests solely because of age.
Mary, that’s a load of bull. It may appear that way for your father. At a certain age, a bishop may encourage a man to be worthy to be ordained to a high priest, and if found worthy he may be ordained to the office of a high priest. That is just as valid a reason to become a high priest as a calling.
It appears that many of you have no real idea of how the church works. How annoying for an old man.
There are always exceptions (so leave out new members, less active, etc.) but when a person attends a quorum over a period of time there should be a point where that person becomes a member of the quorum.
There is not a natural progression to becoming a HP. Assume you are a male age 25 living in a large stable ward (50 to 80 elders). During the next 20 years 12 (most likely less) men will be placed in the bishopric. You could have another 12 men (most likely less) made HP to serve in the HP. There might be someone made a HP to serve on the high council. If you are not one of the lucky 25 made a HP to serve in those callings, then you stay an elder.
An active older elder is usually not given callings in the elders quorum (always an exception). An older elder that attends HP quorum is treated as a second-class member of the HP quorum. Generally, an elder does not give the lesson, does not sustain leadership, does not attend stake quorum meetings, and does not attend HP parties unless the bishop approves it. The elder is often excluded from serving others.
Depending upon the bishop, an elder that attends HP can be sent back to elders quorum when he changes wards.
Unless an elder can become a HP, he often will be treated second class by both the elders quorum and the HP quorum as he ages.
The inactivity level of men in their 50’s who have not been ordained HP is quite high; much higher than anyone wants to admit. You can make up trite sayings but they do not change things.
If you live in a stable ward, just picture the ward 20 years ago when it had 50 to 80 elders in it. Assume 25 of them became HP, do you have 25 to 55 active elders over the age of 45? Some of them will have been moved to HP but the rest will most likely be inactive.
In my ward, the HP meet in the high council room and the elders meet in the seminary room. The HP get plush chairs and the elders get plastic chairs. I guess the HP does not have perks.
Nevertheless it happened. I don’t see though, why one would need to be more worthy to be a high priest than an elder. They are both offices (hierarchal though of course) in the Melchezidek priesthood that have different responsibilities. That was why he was moved to high priests, because he was becoming too old for the elders quorum. I am not complaining, nor is he, but this does happen sometimes.
No Mary, it doesn’t happen that way. Worthiness is the basis for all priesthood ordinations. For example, to become a priest from a teacher the bishop stands in and says in sacrament something to the effect of ‘so and so has turned 16, and upon interviewing him I found him worthy to be ordained to a Priest’. Worthiness is the basis for all priesthood ordinations not age, darlin’. That is the way the Lord set up the priesthood and it does not change (no matter what you think you understand about your father).
Mary, I did not follow. Was it your father who was moved to the HP group? Was he ordained a HP or is he still an elder?
Pete
But this is exactly what happened. Why did he need to be a high priest rather than an elder? He was told the reason he advanced at that time was because of his age. If it was a matter or worthiness why not earlier? He wasn’t any more worthy at that time than before.
He was made a high priest and moved to the high priest group. This was many years ago.
Oh and another thing, don’t patronise me, Pete. I am not a credible teenager. I know very well how the priesthood works.
I can certainly say that in every case when we discussed in our bishopric meetings advancement of an elder to the office of high priest, it was only age that was ever discussed. Never once did the bishop or anyone else in those meetings ever say anything about advancing the brethren because they were now worthy of it.
All, This thread appears to be what D&C 121 was adressing.
“Gratifying pride”
“Hence many are called, but few are chosen.”
Worrying about perks, profile or opportunity is the same as having your “heart set upon the things of the world.”
It doesn’t matter if you are in HP or EQ. You are all elders. Same responsibilities, same covenent with the Lord:
D&C 84:33-39
Time to gird em up and get to work.